77 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

So, what is your Top 5 Madison?

[You Play to Win the Game]

Exactly why in 2013, you can't call him a top 5 coach.

 

One thing I forgot in my rebuttal to Peter, the Nuggets were clearly favored this year over the Warriors this year.

 

They were, but not by much. I don't know much about basketball, but I pegged the Warriors to win that series, and it had nothing to do with Karl's post-season resume. It had to do with Denver's injuries, and believing a little more in Golden State than some others. 

[SportsGuy]

Exactly why in 2013, you can't call him a top 5 coach.
 
One thing I forgot in my rebuttal to Peter, the Nuggets were clearly favored this year over the Warriors this year.

Without Gallinari and a Faried that wasn't close to 100%.

Now, Lee got hurt in the series for GS and I do think Denver was the better team but losing Gallanari was a huge loss for Denver.

[PD24]

So no love for Chauncey? Sorry I just had to go there...

 

I think with these things you look at the whole body of work, but more emphasis is placed towards recent play. Anotherwards, what he did with Seattle, a decade-and-a-half ago isn't so relevant in determining his current standing.

 

A lot of "ifs" with your arguments, can't we focus more on what happened? We can go through the "ifs" forever in sports and life.

 

He's a top 5 regular season coach, you could make the argument but not a top 5 overall coach based on his postseason play. He's made it out of the first round ONCE in nearly a decade in Denver. So much for your championship argument, try getting out of the first round more than once over this time period. If you are the GM or owner, are you OK with this? Would you keep him? Knowing a lot of Nuggets fans, they are through with him at this point. You're the one who points the Billy Beane quote about building for something special or already having it, does Karl fit either criteria? And it's not like he just got to Denver and needs more time.

 

The Denver team, as currently constructed, has NO CHANCE to win an NBA Championship in today's landscape.

 

That's not Karl's fault. It's been shown that a team is much better with 2 superstars, 3 good players, and 3 role players than with 8+ good players like Denver has.

 

That can't be held against him. It's the GM's fault that they aren't building for something special, not Karl's. I don't see a coach in the NBA other than MAYBE Mike Dantoni that could have gotten equal or better play out of this year's Denver team. 

[PD24]

They were, but not by much. I don't know much about basketball, but I pegged the Warriors to win that series, and it had nothing to do with Karl's post-season resume. It had to do with Denver's injuries, and believing a little more in Golden State than some others. 

 

Yeah. Gallinari hurt, but all teams have injuries. Gallinari is a nice player but Denver has probably the most above average players on their team as anyone in the league.

 

I thought Denver would win because they both play up-tempo ball and I felt like Denver had the better players, but I, along with most, underrated GS because they're, well, GS. In general, I don't like jump shooting teams because I don't think they can win it all and stay hot for 4 series' but in any given series, a team like GS can sneak up on you and it's really hard to defend as an opposing team. 

[SBTarheel]

Popovich

 

 

Thibs

Vogel (love the way the Pacers play, with literally no stars)

Rivers

Carlisle

 

 

i think Mark Jackson is awful to be honest..Their end of game (besides today) play has been atrocious in the playoffs..Mike Malone (former Loyola Greyhound, and future head coach) is the brains behind their success in my opinion...Oh, and Steph Curry too.

[SportsGuy]

Popovich
 
 
Thibs
Vogel (love the way the Pacers play, with literally no stars)
Rivers
Carlisle
 
 
i think Mark Jackson is awful to be honest..Their end of game (besides today) play has been atrocious in the playoffs..Mike Malone (former Loyola Greyhound, and future head coach) is the brains behind their success in my opinion...Oh, and Steph Curry too.

And is Shaw the brains behind Indiana?

[Oriole85]

The Denver team, as currently constructed, has NO CHANCE to win an NBA Championship in today's landscape.

 

That's not Karl's fault. It's been shown that a team is much better with 2 superstars, 3 good players, and 3 role players than with 8+ good players like Denver has.

 

That can't be held against him. It's the GM's fault that they aren't building for something special, not Karl's. I don't see a coach in the NBA other than MAYBE Mike Dantoni that could have gotten equal or better play out of this year's Denver team. 

And that's a valid point. This is about way more than this season, it's about the last decade (and even before). But he has trouble getting past the first round. I'm not saying he has to routinely get to the Conference Finals to be a top 5 coach. If you're Denver, how much longer do you accept the status quo with Karl? If you think they need to change the GM (a la Jets) fine. But does Karl just get free rein?

[SBTarheel]

And is Shaw the brains behind Indiana?

Don't know, but he is highly regarded.

[BSLMikeLowe]

The Denver team, as currently constructed, has NO CHANCE to win an NBA Championship in today's landscape.

 

That's not Karl's fault. It's been shown that a team is much better with 2 superstars, 3 good players, and 3 role players than with 8+ good players like Denver has.

 

That can't be held against him. It's the GM's fault that they aren't building for something special, not Karl's. I don't see a coach in the NBA other than MAYBE Mike Dantoni that could have gotten equal or better play out of this year's Denver team. 

The 2003-04 Detroit Pistons won the title with a roster similar to Denver's, against the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in the Finals.

 

And again, Karl had the roster you said is needed to win on that 93-94 Sonics team.....2 superstars (Payton, Kemp) 3 good players (Detlef Schrempf, Sam Perkins, Ricky Pierce) and some good role players (Kendall Gill, Nate McMillan, Vince Askew). And I've already told you the results.

[PD24]

And that's a valid point. This is about way more than this season, it's about the last decade (and even before). But he has trouble getting past the first round. I'm not saying he has to routinely get to the Conference Finals to be a top 5 coach. If you're Denver, how much longer do you accept the status quo with Karl? If you think they need to change the GM (a la Jets) fine. But does Karl just get free rein?

 

I don't see why he wouldn't get free rein as of now because other than this year, when he really only could have gotten to the 2nd round, I don't see A) where he SHOULD have gotten farther in the playoffs, and B) where he should have had a better regular season. Therefore, what grounds would they have for wanting to make a change?

Sure, coaches can take their team past better teams, and over Karl's tenure it should have happened by now, but it's much harder to do in the star-driven NBA compared to other sports.

[PD24]

The 2003-04 Detroit Pistons won the title with a roster similar to Denver's, against the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in the Finals.

 

And again, Karl had the roster you said is needed to win on that 93-94 Sonics team.....2 superstars (Payton, Kemp) 3 good players (Detlef Schrempf, Sam Perkins, Ricky Pierce) and some good role players (Kendall Gill, Nate McMillan, Vince Askew). And I've already told you the results.

 

That Pistons team had way more veteran leadership and presence. That said, I get your point...that's why Larry Brown is a legendary coach.

[SportsGuy]

The 2003-04 Detroit Pistons won the title with a roster similar to Denver's, against the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in the Finals.
 
And again, Karl had the roster you said is needed to win on that 93-94 Sonics team.....2 superstars (Payton, Kemp) 3 good players (Detlef Schrempf, Sam Perkins, Ricky Pierce) and some good role players (Kendall Gill, Nate McMillan, Vince Askew). And I've already told you the results.

So, Karl is less of a coach because he didn't succeed with the one team that maybe he could have won with? And, a team that he had almost 20 years ago?

That Seattle team wasn't beating Houston btw...no one would have and should have expected them to.

[Oriole85]

I don't see why he wouldn't get free rein as of now because other than this year, when he really only could have gotten to the 2nd round, I don't see A) where he SHOULD have gotten farther in the playoffs, and B) where he should have had a better regular season. Therefore, what grounds would they have for wanting to make a change?

Sure, coaches can take their team past better teams, and over Karl's tenure it should have happened by now, but it's much harder to do in the star-driven NBA compared to other sports.

I'm surprised someone like you who preaches championship or bust mentality, is just happy with a decade of not getting past the first round save for one season.

 

Flip Saunders went to the ECF three times in three seasons with the Pistons and they fired him (and they've only gotten substantially worse since he left). Karl isn't even doing close to that. The dropoff can't be that great from continued first round exits if they decide to make a change, can it be?

[SBTarheel]

Say what you will about Karl, but I'd have liked to have seen them with a healthy Gallo & Faried, and see how they'd have done against San Antonio & Oklahoma City (healthy, of course).

 

No excuses, and he certainly hasn't really done it in the playoffs thus far in his career, but this Nuggets team should be very good again next year..We'll see.

[PD24]

I'm surprised someone like you who preaches championship or bust mentality, is just happy with a decade of not getting past the first round save for one season.

 

Flip Saunders went to the ECF three times in three seasons with the Pistons and they fired him (and they've only gotten substantially worse since he left). Karl isn't even doing close to that. The dropoff can't be that great from continued first round exits if they decide to make a change, can it be?

 

First off, Flip should have never gotten fired. Secondly, the reason he likely got fired is because that Pistons team really had no where to improve, other than with the coaches. They had reached a peak, the roster didn't have much room for change, and basically, they just wanted to try a different way to win. 

 

That's not the case with Denver. They have room to improve, and Karl is a fantastic coach to help the young talent improve. 

 

And no, in the playoffs the dropoff wouldn't be that great, but there would be a dropoff in the regular season, and they wouldn't have much of a chance to do anything in the playoffs if they don't add to the team.

 

I'm just very sensitive to this being a superstar driven league. The Pistons team is the outlier and the only team in the past like 20+ years to win a championship without a bonafide, top of the league star. Even teams that lose to the finals are usually in that same boat.

 

I can't penalize Karl for not winning in a league like that. Could he have won a few first round series' as an underdog? I guess, but ultimately what would that prove? 

[SportsGuy]

Karl was also hurt by coaching Melo and his selfish ways.

[BSLMikeLowe]

So, Karl is less of a coach because he didn't succeed with the one team that maybe he could have won with? And, a team that he had almost 20 years ago?

That Seattle team wasn't beating Houston btw...no one would have and should have expected them to.

But to lose to Denver in the 1st Round?

[SBTarheel]

Karl was also hurt by coaching Melo and his selfish ways.

Let's not forget other me first guys like JR Smith, Kenyon Martin, and Allen Iverson.

[PD24]

Say what you will about Karl, but I'd have liked to have seen them with a healthy Gallo & Faried, and see how they'd have done against San Antonio & Oklahoma City (healthy, of course).

 

No excuses, and he certainly hasn't really done it in the playoffs thus far in his career, but this Nuggets team should be very good again next year..We'll see.

 

I would have liked to see that as well, and people underestimate just how good both of those guys were this year. Lots of people consider Denver to be an up-tempo, 3 point shooting team, but Faried was a total beast inside this year and really helped them toughen up, which has been a weakness for them. I bet over points/rebounds several times this year for Faried and he usually covered. Really under-rated this year.

 

However, what I'd like to see even more is Karl with a team that had a legit chance to win. Figure out a way to get a superstar in there. They're just wasting lots of above average/good talent. It's been a shorter window for Indiana but they're doing the same thing right now. Good team, great coaching, lots of nice, good role players but literally no chance to win a championship. Dallas did that for a long time but ultimately Dirk along with an insanely hot shooting playoffs got them the ring. There isn't a Dirk walking through the door for these teams like Denver, Indiana, Atlanta, etc.