18 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

MASN: Bordick talks about 3 INF's
http://www.masnsport...infielders.html

[SportsGuy]

I don't know what Bordick was watching if he thinks Flaherty was an above average defensive player, especially at second.

[Mackus]

I don't know what Bordick was watching if he thinks Flaherty was an above average defensive player, especially at second.

Agree, I think he's just saying positive things, rather than actually thinking that Flaherty is a good defensive 2B and good enough to play SS as the utility infielder.

[SportsGuy]

Agree, I think he's just saying positive things, rather than actually thinking that Flaherty is a good defensive 2B and good enough to play SS as the utility infielder.

Yea, I hope so. Basically this is just some fluff piece that very little can be taken away from.

[dpsmith22]

I think you guys are forgetting that Flaherty sat on the bench for 5 months, then starting playing. I am not saying he is or isn't a good defender, i am just saying taking ground ball in practice is hardly preparing him for game speed.

I will wait and see how he plays with regular reps.

[SportsGuy]

I think you guys are forgetting that Flaherty sat on the bench for 5 months, then starting playing. I am not saying he is or isn't a good defender, i am just saying taking ground ball in practice is hardly preparing him for game speed.

I will wait and see how he plays with regular reps.

Hopefully that doesn't happen...at least at the ML level.

And he has taken everyday reps in the past, in the minors.

Its not like this is a new position for him and its not like he is a 20 years old with a lot of room to grow.

[Mackus]

I do think that Flaherty could develop enough to be good enough to play 2B everyday defensively. I don't think he's there now, but I also don't think he's so bad that it's an absolutely unreachable goal for him. I think he's going to have a hard time both hitting and fielding enough to be a regular guy, but I don't think it's impossible.

[JeremyStrain]

Remember that Flaherty was a rule 5 pick last year and was not ready for the ML. What you saw last year isn't what he should be judged on, but it should be weighted enough that he gets the appreciation for being a position player that survived the entire season with a team. That doesn't happen often.

[SportsGuy]

Remember that Flaherty was a rule 5 pick last year and was not ready for the ML. What you saw last year isn't what he should be judged on, but it should be weighted enough that he gets the appreciation for being a position player that survived the entire season with a team. That doesn't happen often.

He's 26...its not like he is a 22 y/o still learning.

At this point, he basically is what he is.

[JeremyStrain]

He's 26...its not like he is a 22 y/o still learning.

At this point, he basically is what he is.

Yes, but regardless of his age he wasn't ready for the ML last year, age doesn't determine that. For him to hold his own at that level even though he wasn't ready was impressive enough. Now you need to give him a chance to use that experience and improve.

He's not what he is because he is a certain age, he's a late bloomer because it took him that long to break through, and even then it only happened because he was drafted in the rule 5. Think of it as sink or swim and he treaded water pretty well. Now that he's made THAT step, you see if he's got some more in him.

How old was BRob when he finally broke out?

[SportsGuy]

Yes, but regardless of his age he wasn't ready for the ML last year, age doesn't determine that. For him to hold his own at that level even though he wasn't ready was impressive enough. Now you need to give him a chance to use that experience and improve.

He's not what he is because he is a certain age, he's a late bloomer because it took him that long to break through, and even then it only happened because he was drafted in the rule 5. Think of it as sink or swim and he treaded water pretty well. Now that he's made THAT step, you see if he's got some more in him.

How old was BRob when he finally broke out?

I agree he wasn't ready...but at age 26, that's not a ringing endorsement either. This is about defense though and if he is below at age 26, its hard to imagine he has that much improvement from here on out...not out of the question, just not likely.

For every Melvin Mora, there are 100s of guys who just never bloomed, no matter how late.

[JeffLong]

I don't know what Bordick was watching if he thinks Flaherty was an above average defensive player, especially at second.

Defensive metrics agree with him.

24.8 UZR/150 at 2B in 2012 (fangraphs - http://www.fangraphs...=2B/OF#fielding)

26 runs saved above average at 2B in 2012 (BaseballRef - http://www.baseball-...shtml<!-- m -->)

[Mackus]

Defensive metrics agree with him.

When dealing with sample sizes as small as there are for Flaherty at the various positions he played last year, defensive metrics are absolutely meaningless.

He's not a 24 UZR/150 player at 2B, nor is he likely a -53 UZR/150 player in LF.

[JeffLong]

When dealing with sample sizes as small as there are for Flaherty at the various positions he played last year, defensive metrics are absolutely meaningless.

He's not a 24 UZR/150 player at 2B, nor is he likely a -53 UZR/150 player in LF.

Obviously, and I've used that caveat when writing about him before.

However, my point, much like yours is that he's not below average at 2B.

Ps - There's a difference between 50 inning (LF) and 170 (2B) too. Both small sample sizes, but one is 3x the small sample size the other is.

[SportsGuy]

Obviously, and I've used that caveat when writing about him before.

However, my point, much like yours is that he's not below average at 2B.

Ps - There's a difference between 50 inning (LF) and 170 (2B) too. Both small sample sizes, but one is 3x the small sample size the other is.

He's average at best...and that may be kind.

[bmoreb]

If Roberts can't play, which I feel unfortunately will be the case, I don't think Flaherty is the answer. If we don't sign somebody for second, I guess Flaherty will platoon with Casilla? I guess double d and Buck know what there doing, but it worries me.

[bnickle]

I saw enough out of Flaherty at 2b to believe he could stay there full time. I'll leave it at that. Just how good I don;t know, but he wasn't a liability there.

[Mackus]

Ps - There's a difference between 50 inning (LF) and 170 (2B) too. Both small sample sizes, but one is 3x the small sample size the other is.

Both are irrelevantly small samples, at least for the defensive stats to have any meaning.

The general rule of thumb I've seen is that defense stats need about twice as big of a sample as offensive stats to get the same reliability. There are about 1450 innings in a season. So Flaherty has played at 2B for about 1/9th of that.

So his defensive stats are about the same sample size as 9 or 10 games worth of offensive stats, absolutely meaningless without further knowledge, which we don't have for him defensively yet.

[JeremyStrain]

Both are irrelevantly small samples, at least for the defensive stats to have any meaning.

The general rule of thumb I've seen is that defense stats need about twice as big of a sample as offensive stats to get the same reliability. There are about 1450 innings in a season. So Flaherty has played at 2B for about 1/9th of that.

So his defensive stats are about the same sample size as 9 or 10 games worth of offensive stats, absolutely meaningless without further knowledge, which we don't have for him defensively yet.

They still dont have that kind of reliabilty no matter how big the sample size. Until they figure out what hiccups throw off some players or create huge discrepancies from what scouts see (some discrepancy is fine but huge ones are a prob) or certain parks you cant treat them reliably. Use them as a guide or supplement not as a rule, they are still a work in progress.