32 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

Pitching depth? We have five guys vying for the final spot in the rotation and J. Johnson is about to get expensive. We have other internal options that can handle the closers role and trading one "would be" starter isn't going to kill us IMO.

Having Bourjos in the outfield with his defense and speed would be a huge add for us and having Trumbo split between first and DH with Davis is better than splitting it between Davis and Betemit.

Whether you would still have depth or not, doesn't really change the point. You are reducing the existing depth that exists, and you barely improve the positional lineup.

Bourjos is the best OF out of himself, Jones, and McLouth. However, if Bourjos is in LF, the difference between him and McLouth is not going to be significant - even with McLouth's Damon-esque arm.

If Jones is in LF, and Bourjos is in CF, I agree the defense has gained.

I also agree the offense is better with Trumbo at 1st/DH, with Davis at 1st/DH, and Betemit on the bench vs. Davis, Betemit, and both of Reimold, and Pearce on the bench.

The question is how much? I don't think the answer to that question is Johnson, Matusz, +.

[LanceRinker]

Whether you would still have depth or not, doesn't really change the point. You are reducing the existing depth that exists, and you barely improve the positional lineup.

Bourjos is the best OF out of himself, Jones, and McLouth. However, if Bourjos is in LF, the difference between him and McLouth is not going to be significant - even with McLouth's Damon-esque arm.

If Jones is in LF, and Bourjos is in CF, I agree the defense has gained.

I also agree the offense is better with Trumbo at 1st/DH, with Davis, and Betemit on the bench vs. Davis, Betemit, Reimold, and Pearce on the bench.

The question is how much? I don't think the answer to that question is Johnson, Matusz, +.

Or you could move Bourjos to RF and have Markakis play LF. Bourjos is an upgrade in the outfield over the three guys we have right now.

Having another masher in the middle of the lineup is a huge upgrade over having Betemit in there, at any spot.

If we don't trade Johnson while his value is at it's highest than we'll not be getting much in return for him anyway. While some of us are still high on Matusz (I am too), you have to give up talent to get talent in return. Johnson and Arrieta aren't going to get a deal done. Johnson and Johnson might but I'd actually prefer to keep Steve Johnson - call me crazy, many have already.

I'm not trading Tillman for either of or both of them, that's for sure. That leaves Matusz as the likely, and logical, trade candidate.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Or you could move Bourjos to RF and have Markakis play LF. Bourjos is an upgrade in the outfield over the three guys we have right now.

Having another masher in the middle of the lineup is a huge upgrade over having Betemit in there, at any spot.

If we don't trade Johnson while his value is at it's highest than we'll not be getting much in return for him anyway. While some of us are still high on Matusz (I am too), you have to give up talent to get talent in return. Johnson and Arrieta aren't going to get a deal done. Johnson and Johnson might but I'd actually prefer to keep Steve Johnson - call me crazy, many have already.

I'm not trading Tillman for either of or both of them, that's for sure. That leaves Matusz as the likely, and logical, trade candidate.

LF is regarded as harder to play at OPACY than RF, so if you were obtaining Bourjos for his defense - why play him in RF?

If Trumbo is the full-time DH, how much is he going to out-produce a platoon of Betemit, Reimold and/or Pearce?

If you are going to trade Johnson, it makes more sense to try and move him at the non-waiver deadline. You will obviously know where you are as a team better. If you are not a contender, the decision to move him is easy. If you are a contender, but have holes, and other bullpen arms are pitching well... you could move him, and he will likely bring back more then, than he would now.

I believe what Johnson does is highly sustainable, and that value should exist. However, Jay Jaffe, SI was recently on WNST and said Johnson had minimal trade value right now.

Agreed that it takes talent to get talent. I don't think the trade you suggests actually improves the O's though.

[LanceRinker]

LF is regarded as harder to play at OPACY than RF, so if you were obtaining Bourjos for his defense - why play him in RF?

If Trumbo is the full-time DH, how much is he going to out-produce a platoon of Betemit, Reimold and/or Pearce?

If you are going to trade Johnson, it makes more sense to try and move him at the non-waiver deadline. You will obviously know where you are as a team better. If you are not a contender, the decision to move him is easy. If you are a contender, but have holes, and other bullpen arms are pitching well... you could move him, and he will likely bring back more then, than he would now.

I believe what Johnson does is highly sustainable, and that value should exist. However, Jay Jaffe, SI was recently on WNST and said Johnson had minimal trade value right now.

Agreed that it takes talent to get talent. I don't think the trade you suggests actually improves the O's though.

The point I was making with moving Bourjos to RF is that you can play him anywhere in our OF and it'd be an improvement. Less so in RF but still an improvement.

I also agree that top notch closers typically have more trade value during the season at the deadline but if you can get something of good value in return for him now than why not? It gives you more time to figure out who your next closer will be and settle the roster overall.

[SportsGuy]

The point I was making with moving Bourjos to RF is that you can play him anywhere in our OF and it'd be an improvement. Less so in RF but still an improvement.

I also agree that top notch closers typically have more trade value during the season at the deadline but if you can get something of good value in return for him now than why not? It gives you more time to figure out who your next closer will be and settle the roster overall.

Trading him now also takes away any chance he struggles early on and sees his value drop.

I do agree that if he has a very good first half, that he will be worth more in JUly than right now.

[LanceRinker]

Trading him now also takes away any chance he struggles early on and sees his value drop.

I do agree that if he has a very good first half, that he will be worth more in JUly than right now.

True, on both accounts.

[Mackus]

If we don't trade Johnson while his value is at it's highest than we'll not be getting much in return for him anyway. While some of us are still high on Matusz (I am too), you have to give up talent to get talent in return. Johnson and Arrieta aren't going to get a deal done. Johnson and Johnson might but I'd actually prefer to keep Steve Johnson - call me crazy, many have already.

I'm not trading Tillman for either of or both of them, that's for sure. That leaves Matusz as the likely, and logical, trade candidate.

Forget what you'd give up to get Bourjos.

Why would the Angels trade him for a couple of relief pitchers? They have a desperate need for starting pitching. If they trade Bourjos, which I doubt they'll do, you can bet they'll be getting a starter in return for him, and Matusz certainly does not qualify if he's the only starter in the package.

If you're not trading Tillman (or Chen), you're not getting Bourjos.

[LanceRinker]

Forget what you'd give up to get Bourjos.

Why would the Angels trade him for a couple of relief pitchers? They have a desperate need for starting pitching. If they trade Bourjos, which I doubt they'll do, you can bet they'll be getting a starter in return for him, and Matusz certainly does not qualify if he's the only starter in the package.

If you're not trading Tillman (or Chen), you're not getting Bourjos.

Tillman or Chen? That's crazy talk and if that's the cost then I don't want him. Bourjos is a great player to have for his speed and defense alone, but his offensive production up to this point in his career still leaves a lot to be desired. The Ben Revere package is comparable to what the Angels will expect for Bourjos, but Bourjos hasn't produced nearly as much on offense (by the numbers) as Revere has (laugh if you want, it's true) and has one year less of team control left.

[Mackus]

Tillman or Chen? That's crazy talk and if that's the cost then I don't want him. Bourjos is a great player to have for his speed and defense alone, but his offensive production up to this point in his career still leaves a lot to be desired. The Ben Revere package is comparable to what the Angels will expect for Bourjos, but Bourjos hasn't produced nearly as much on offense (by the numbers) as Revere has (laugh if you want, it's true) and has one year less of team control left.

Well you're talking about similar value in terms of Johnson. Starters have more value than relievers, sure, but a consistent top closer (if you can sell Johnson as that) can be more valuable than an average #3/4 type starter (if you can sell Chen or Tillman as that).

My point isn't that we should trade Chen or Tillman for Bourjos. The point is, and I think it's tough to argue against, is that the Angels will trade Bourjos somewhere that they can get a starter in return. I think he could get them about halfway towards an R.A. Dickey trade, for example. Or maybe he's traded for someone Gavin Floyd if the Sox decide they don't like Viciedo's low OBP in LF. Or to Atlanta who still needs a replacement for Bourne.

The Angels desperately need SP. I think it's unlikely that they trade away their most valuable asset without addressing their biggest weakness in the process.

[LanceRinker]

Well you're talking about similar value in terms of Johnson. Starters have more value than relievers, sure, but a consistent top closer (if you can sell Johnson as that) can be more valuable than an average #3/4 type starter (if you can sell Chen or Tillman as that).

My point isn't that we should trade Chen or Tillman for Bourjos. The point is, and I think it's tough to argue against, is that the Angels will trade Bourjos somewhere that they can get a starter in return. I think he could get them about halfway towards an R.A. Dickey trade, for example. Or maybe he's traded for someone Gavin Floyd if the Sox decide they don't like Viciedo's low OBP in LF. Or to Atlanta who still needs a replacement for Bourne.

The Angels desperately need SP. I think it's unlikely that they trade away their most valuable asset without addressing their biggest weakness in the process.

Okay, if they're iffy on Matusz then we also have several other options not named Tillman or Chen that could be traded. Throw in a prospect to sweeten the pot a little and it'd at least give them something to think about.

[Mackus]

Okay, if they're iffy on Matusz then we also have several other options not named Tillman or Chen that could be traded. Throw in a prospect to sweeten the pot a little and it'd at least give them something to think about.

They just spent $125M on Josh Hamilton a year after spending over $300M on Pujols and Wilson. They want to win now. Matusz, Britton, and other question marks aren't going to entice them, IMO.

I'm all for making the best offer we can, but similar to how I don't feel we match up well with Arizona in a potential Justin Upton trade, I also don't feel like we match up very well with Anaheim for a Bourjos trade unless we're willing to move an actual starting pitcher, not a starting pitcher question mark like Matusz or Britton.

[SportsGuy]

http://www.mlbtrader... ... elder.html

[mweb08]

I don't think the Angels would deal both Bourjos and Trumbo unless they can get someone back like Dickey. They really should only be looking at dealing one of them.

I'd love to have Bourjos, but just don't see that as realistic with Jones and as Mackus pointed out, that puts Nate on the bench and limits Reimold's chances even further.

To SG, I don't see why the Angels would want to deal Callaspo and you'd have to add a lot to the O's side of the equation to make that attractive to them even if they would deal Callaspo.