Photo

FanGraphs: Revisiting the Trevor Rogers Trade. Oof.


  • Please log in to reply
41 replies to this topic

#21 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,517 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 11:34 AM

At least Soto's advanced metrics lead you to believe there's some untapped potential or improvement that could be made to turn into a useful piece.

Rogers has none of that hope currently.

Rogers is going to have the time here to do that. Look, he was throwing fairly well before the deadline. Wasnt some huge gap between him and the others traded. Not many liked Kikuchi or Lorenzen. THey have both been good. Kind of a coinflip dealing with the type of arms that were dealt.  

 

Soto on the other hand doesnt appear like he is going to have time to turn things around here. Still some chance but Hyde has no trust in him and for good reason. 



#22 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,517 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 11:41 AM

He brought nothing, so it's not much of a stretch to suggest he could've brought something. 

 

And frankly, it isn't our jobs to get it right with the limited information we have. It's the FO's. They failed big time here. That really can't be debated. So the "no one would've liked that trade at the time" argument doesn't really matter IMHO. It's on Elias to get it right. Who cares what we think - clearly he doesn't, he never has - and he's a genius for the most part. If Rogers had worked out, I'd certainly swallow my pride and tip the cap to the man as I have so many times in the past, as he has deserved.

The one place we can agree is that I think Elias and company were overthinking a bit and were going for the win-win in '24 and the future . They could have acquired a SP who had a higher floor for the rest of the season. They saw the numbers Rogers had put up in June and July and were hoping he could continue to do that and then would work with him in the offseason to get more out of him in the future.



#23 jamesdean

jamesdean

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,432 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 11:54 AM

Also, this piece just focuses on trying to breakout the analysis of Rogers numbers which is such a shallow approach to analyzing the actual trade.  There's 3 elements to the issues of this trade and covering one of them partially doesn't do it.  The the assessment of him being the answer (ie performance) as well as Timing and Cost.

 

Rogers is available whenever you want him.  He's not free (like a waiver claim) but he's not some guy you have to pay for.  If you think you can back to the better-Rogers, great, but we needed pitching 8 weeks before the trade deadline.  

 

Why would we wait until the (literally) last second to over-pay for a guy that doesn't move the needle (short term).

 

I'm not even negative on Rogers like nearly everyone else. I'd guess part of his issues are physical and the Orioles seem to have a good program in terms of generating the athleticism they want for their approach.  Find the platform to execute a better plan off of, great.  We actually see the Orioles do this a fair amount most of their waiver-level external adds.

I agree with most of what you're saying, although I still don't like the trade itself.  I thought the team could have done better with the chips they moved.  But as you said, maybe Rogers just needs a tweak here and there with his mechanics and he was pitching well with the Marlins before the trade so it's not like he's entirely out of his element.  And I also agree Elias should have been more proactive earlier in the year in getting more pitching depth.  Even though they were playing well, the clouds on the horizon were ominous. 


  • CantonJester likes this

#24 BSLMikeLowe

BSLMikeLowe

    CFB Analyst

  • Moderators
  • 20,222 posts
  • LocationPortland, Oregon

Posted 25 August 2024 - 12:02 PM

What happens with Rogers in the future really has no impact on how I rate this trade. The objective needed to be bolstering this year’s rotation with someone you can potentially trust to start a playoff elimination game. Barring a miracle turnaround over the next month, achieving that goal was a failure.

 

Maybe Rogers can help in the future. Great if he does. But finding a fixer-upper is something that could and should have been addressed in the offseason.


  • Mackus and BSLSteveBirrer like this

#25 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,517 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 12:09 PM

Fedde was the name a lot of people wanted. And I get it. I was on board with that. But if his Sept is as bad as his August is he a guy you would've trusted in the playoffs. THis is where I was in favor of making a big push for Skubal. I dont know if a package headed by Mayo/Basallo and Kjersted could have got it done but I wouldve discussed it with them. You have 1 shot to do this with Burnes here. GO real big. After you decided not to go real big I just didnt see a great secondary tier. I wish there wouldve been a Verlander, Montgomery or Scherzer quality of arm that was available like last year but that wasnt the case this year


  • BSLSteveBirrer likes this

#26 BSLMikeLowe

BSLMikeLowe

    CFB Analyst

  • Moderators
  • 20,222 posts
  • LocationPortland, Oregon

Posted 25 August 2024 - 12:22 PM

I surely would have been critical and unhappy had they not traded for another starter besides Eflin. But the reality is if they hadn’t they’d be in the exact same spot they are right now, relying on Burnes and a fearsome foursome of Kremer/Suarez/Povich/Irvin. But they’d also still have trade chips in Norby/Stowers to use in the offseason. Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don’t make.


  • BSLSteveBirrer likes this

#27 BobPhelan

BobPhelan

    OTV

  • Moderators
  • 15,102 posts
  • LocationBel Air, MD

Posted 25 August 2024 - 01:14 PM

BTW you can give this trade whatever grade you want for now and I wont argue but it clearly has a chance to improve. It could improve a good bit should Rogers turn things back around in the future. I actually think the Soto trade was the worst trade. Still a bit of time for things to change but its apparent Hyde doesnt want to use him at all right now. His option is not going to be picked up. We gave up Seth Johnson and Chace for him to throw a few low lev innings. Two real potential arms. I would probably take that return over Stowers and Norby. Stowers is a clear AAA guy and I just dont have much belief in Norby at all.


Soto is going into his final arb year, no option needed. I think he’ll be back next year. But yeah, it’s the worse trade IMO.

#28 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,517 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 01:29 PM

Soto is going into his final arb year, no option needed. I think he’ll be back next year. But yeah, it’s the worse trade IMO.

I knew Soto and DOminguez both had team control next year. I believe one is an option and one is arb. I cant see the Os offering him arb at the cost. I could be wrong.  He's making 5 mil this year. He will get a raise if arb is offered so 6 mil at least. 

 

 

 

DO you agree with me that Johnson and Chace have as much if not more value than Norby and Stowers



#29 BSLSteveBirrer

BSLSteveBirrer

    Soccer Analyst

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,664 posts
  • LocationMS and ID

Posted 25 August 2024 - 01:30 PM

BTW you can give this trade whatever grade you want for now and I wont argue but it clearly has a chance to improve. It could improve a good bit should Rogers turn things back around in the future. I actually think the Soto trade was the worst trade. Still a bit of time for things to change but its apparent Hyde doesnt want to use him at all right now. His option is not going to be picked up. We gave up Seth Johnson and Chace for him to throw a few low lev innings. Two real potential arms. I would probably take that return over Stowers and Norby. Stowers is a clear AAA guy and I just dont have much belief in Norby at all.


You don't have much belief in Norby and I understand that. But here we are with Rivera on the roster. Do you believe in him more than Norby? Sure it's hindsight but damn what the heck was Elias thinking??

#30 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,517 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 01:34 PM

You don't have much belief in Norby and I understand that. But here we are with Rivera on the roster. Do you believe in him more than Norby? Sure it's hindsight but damn what the heck was Elias thinking??

I do actually. Rivera has a reputation of having a good glove at 3b. Norby has more offensive upside for sure but Id probably be more comfy with Rivera. Same thing applies to Mayo. Mayo needed to tear the cover off the ball for me to be good with him playing every day with the struggles he was having defensively. Glad we sent him back down. Says nothing about what I think of his future overall but now isnt the time to be working rookies in



#31 BobPhelan

BobPhelan

    OTV

  • Moderators
  • 15,102 posts
  • LocationBel Air, MD

Posted 25 August 2024 - 05:43 PM

DO you agree with me that Johnson and Chace have as much if not more value than Norby and Stowers


Yeah I do. Norby and Stowers are fully cooked but the pitchers have more upside.

#32 RichardZ

RichardZ

    MVP

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,792 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 06:11 PM

I knew Soto and DOminguez both had team control next year. I believe one is an option and one is arb. I cant see the Os offering him arb at the cost. I could be wrong.  He's making 5 mil this year. He will get a raise if arb is offered so 6 mil at least. 
 
 
 
DO you agree with me that Johnson and Chace have as much if not more value than Norby and Stowers


Doubtful they let Soto go this off season after trading two pitching prospects for him. They’ll want to go as far as they can to get something out of him instead of just cutting their losses.

#33 BSLSteveBirrer

BSLSteveBirrer

    Soccer Analyst

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,664 posts
  • LocationMS and ID

Posted 25 August 2024 - 06:50 PM

The cost is sunk. Holding on to a bad player just because is not smart.

#34 Mackus

Mackus

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 63,507 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 07:02 PM


The cost is sunk. Holding on to a bad player just because is not smart.


RP go from bad to not and back with some regularity. I doubt I'd non-tender Soto.

#35 BaltBird 24

BaltBird 24

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,422 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 07:39 PM

Soto's arm is too good to non-tender. He's not cheap, but money shouldn't be an issue, and we gave up a decent bit for him.

Work on him in ST.

#36 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,517 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 07:42 PM

We will see. You guys may be right. I do like the arm

#37 BaltBird 24

BaltBird 24

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,422 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 07:49 PM

They've stuck with Perez inconsistency for 3 years now because of the arm talent. I don't think they'll dump Soto so quick.

#38 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,517 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 07:50 PM

The thing is Coloumbe and Perez are still under team control too but Id prefer Soto to Perez

#39 BaltBird 24

BaltBird 24

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,422 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 07:51 PM

Akin as well. How many LHP can they carry in the BP? Prefer Akin to all except maybe Coulombe.

#40 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,517 posts

Posted 25 August 2024 - 07:51 PM

Nevermind Coulombe is a FA.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


Our Sponsors


 width=