1227 replies to this topic

[mdrunning]

According to the Athletic, if Lamar wins his second MVP this year as expected, he will become the first quarterback in NFL history to win two MVP awards in his first six years and not win a championship. The other two-time MVP winners in their first six years were Johnny Unitas, Steve Young, Brett Favre, Kurt Warner and Patrick Mahomes. Even Brady and Manning did not win two MVPs in each of their first six seasons.

 

The article didn't seem to be behind a paywall, so if anyone is interested, here's a link. Lots of good takes.

[85Knight]

I feel sick for Lamar to be honest. As miserable as I am, I can only imagine how he’s feeling.

I thought that this is where the narrative was gonna change for Lamar but instead it got worse. If we don't turn the ball over and Lamar throws 2 tds instead he becomes a hero. The talk would be how he outplayed Mahomes and brought the Ravens back. Just two passes changed everything. Oh so close.

[BaltBird 24]

Feels like the 2011 AFCCG. So close. And we know how that story ended the following year.

[Ravens2006]

The overemphasis on whether a guy has won a ring in relation to his greatness is silly to me.  Peyton was 3-6 in the playoffs through 8 NFL seasons before he won a ring.  His first ring, he was pretty bad in the playoffs himself, the Colts just found a run game and a run defense for the first time in ages (notice the irony of that fact right now).  They couldn't have stopped a slow fat FB from rushing for 150 in the regular season if their lives depended on it... but some January they played like a different unit on defense.  For one magical month.  He was pretty atrocious in the regular season his last NFL year, mediocre at best in the playoffs, and won his second ring thanks again to a run game and a defense that overwhelmed their opponent.  Nobody talks about Peyton being a playoff choker anymore because "he" won two rings.  But anyone who paid attention to how they happened knows that he wasn't the main reason they won either of those titles.  He had good playoff runs personally that ended with an L.  He had bad playoff runs and two of them ended with a ring.  That's because this isn't tennis or golf.  If Bass makes a relatively routine FG last weekend, it might have been Allen in Baltimore Sunday instead of Mahomes.  But instead some folks are still questioning Allen's clutchness too.  And instead of facing the Chiefs solid defense, the Ravens are facing the Bills MUCH worse defense.  Matchups.  Team sport.

 

12, now 14 teams get to the playoffs.  Only 1 ends the season without a loss.  That's a lot of top tier QBs going home with an L every single year.  

 

Lamar didn't play well and the INT was a terrible decision.  But football is a TEAM sport.  Offense, defense, special teams, coaching decisions, that day's match-ups, what refs decide to call or not, etc.  I'm not going to rehash some of the stupidity from Sunday in detail today, but that was a loss that fell on more than just Lamar.  Team sport.

[NewMarketSean]

We may have been better talent-wise but the Chiefs were smarter, more experienced and better coached. Sometimes that is all it takes.

 

It's like one of those movies where the old analog guy comes out of retirement to beat the younger bad guys using computers. Like Die Hard 4 or something.

 

I don't know if Harbaugh and Co. can "get smarter" but they need to ditch their panicked routine when they get down by two scores in the playoffs. It obviously ain't working.

[Mackus]

I thought that this is where the narrative was gonna change for Lamar but instead it got worse. If we don't turn the ball over and Lamar throws 2 tds instead he becomes a hero. The talk would be how he outplayed Mahomes and brought the Ravens back. Just two passes changed everything. Oh so close.

 

But then if they lose to SF, a game that I'd have been really nervous about, the story returns.  

 

Lamar has to win more playoff games and ultimately win a ring or this is gonna be an equally big part of his history as his regular season dominance.  It's just how we look at quarterbacks, and I don't think it's unfair given how oversized of an impact QBs have on the game today.  He can still be a HOF QB - he's very close to a lock already with 2 MVPs - without a great postseason resume, but people will always talk about that as part of the big picture if it remains.  It's not like Lamar doesn't have a good supporting system around him that could explain away a lackluster postseason resume like maybe for Marino or early Elway.  The team, coaching staff, front office, and ownership are all first rate.  What he does have going for him is extreme youth, he's 27 and should be an elite guy for the next handful of years and maybe longer depending on how he ages.  His rushing will diminish later on, but he'll always be a major threat scrambling and extending plays.  He's got lots of time to scratch in the postseason, and it'll only take one to quiet all the talk.  

 

He's had two excellent postseason performances (Texans '23, Titans '20), so I think the claim that he can't play well in the postseason is lazy and demonstrably incorrect.  Its inane to argue that those games didn't count for some reason.  But he's also had two terrible ones (Chargers '18, Bills '19 albeit in brutal conditions) and two uneven at best ones (Titans '19, Chiefs '23), so overall his performance has definitely fallen well below his usual standards.  I think most theories as to why he's struggled are fair.  I'm optimistic we see him put these concerns to rest in the future, but he's gotta do that before they go away.  And really they never will, since the early struggles are part of his history and story just like guys like Manning's struggles are part of his.

[ivanbalt]

The overemphasis on whether a guy has won a ring in relation to his greatness is silly to me.  Peyton was 3-6 in the playoffs through 8 NFL seasons before he won a ring.  His first ring, he was pretty bad in the playoffs himself, the Colts just found a run game and a run defense for the first time in ages (notice the irony of that fact right now).  They couldn't have stopped a slow fat FB from rushing for 150 in the regular season if their lives depended on it... but some January they played like a different unit on defense.  For one magical month.  He was pretty atrocious in the regular season his last NFL year, mediocre at best in the playoffs, and won his second ring thanks again to a run game and a defense that overwhelmed their opponent.  Nobody talks about Peyton being a playoff choker anymore because "he" won two rings.  But anyone who paid attention to how they happened knows that he wasn't the main reason they won either of those titles.  He had good playoff runs personally that ended with an L.  He had bad playoff runs and two of them ended with a ring.  That's because this isn't tennis or golf.  If Bass makes a relatively routine FG last weekend, it might have been Allen in Baltimore Sunday instead of Mahomes.  But instead some folks are still questioning Allen's clutchness too.  And instead of facing the Chiefs solid defense, the Ravens are facing the Bills MUCH worse defense.  Matchups.  Team sport.

 

12, now 14 teams get to the playoffs.  Only 1 ends the season without a loss.  That's a lot of top tier QBs going home with an L every single year.  

 

Lamar didn't play well and the INT was a terrible decision.  But football is a TEAM sport.  Offense, defense, special teams, coaching decisions, that day's match-ups, what refs decide to call or not, etc.  I'm not going to rehash some of the stupidity from Sunday in detail today, but that was a loss that fell on more than just Lamar.  Team sport.

Allen still gets blamed for "losing to Mahomes" in that playoff game a few years even though he threw the go ahead touchdown and the Bills defense couldn't stop the Chiefs with 13 seconds left.

[ivanbalt]

But then if they lose to SF, a game that I'd have been really nervous about, the story returns.  

 

Lamar has to win more playoff games and ultimately win a ring or this is gonna be an equally big part of his history as his regular season dominance.  It's just how we look at quarterbacks, and I don't think it's unfair given how oversized of an impact QBs have on the game today.  He can still be a HOF QB - he's very close to a lock already with 2 MVPs - without a great postseason resume, but people will always talk about that as part of the big picture if it remains.  It's not like Lamar doesn't have a good supporting system around him that could explain away a lackluster postseason resume like maybe for Marino or early Elway.  The team, coaching staff, front office, and ownership are all first rate.  What he does have going for him is extreme youth, he's 27 and should be an elite guy for the next handful of years and maybe longer depending on how he ages.  His rushing will diminish later on, but he'll always be a major threat scrambling and extending plays.  He's got lots of time to scratch in the postseason, and it'll only take one to quiet all the talk.  

 

He's had two excellent postseason performances (Texans '23, Titans '20), so I think the claim that he can't play well in the postseason is lazy and demonstrably incorrect.  Its inane to argue that those games didn't count for some reason.  But he's also had two terrible ones (Chargers '18, Bills '19 albeit in brutal conditions) and two uneven at best ones (Titans '19, Chiefs '23), so overall his performance has definitely fallen well below his usual standards.  I think most theories as to why he's struggled are fair.  I'm optimistic we see him put these concerns to rest in the future, but he's gotta do that before they go away.  And really they never will, since the early struggles are part of his history and story just like guys like Manning's struggles are part of his.

That Chargers 2018 game should barely be held against him.  The Ravens were running a modified Navy offense that an NFL team figured out how to stop.  His game obviously evolved.

[Mike in STL]

That Chargers 2018 game should barely be held against him. The Ravens were running a modified Navy offense that an NFL team figured out how to stop. His game obviously evolved.

I’ll never hold that game against him. Coaches admitted to making no adjustments from their matchup two weeks prior. Where they won. They thought they would just line up and do it again. It was obvious the Chargers brought a look they weren’t expecting and had no answers for.

[Mike in STL]

We may have been better talent-wise but the Chiefs were smarter, more experienced and better coached. Sometimes that is all it takes.

It's like one of those movies where the old analog guy comes out of retirement to beat the younger bad guys using computers. Like Die Hard 4 or something.

I don't know if Harbaugh and Co. can "get smarter" but they need to ditch their panicked routine when they get down by two scores in the playoffs. It obviously ain't working.

The Ravens way of “getting smarter” would look like Dan Campbell on Sunday. No thanks to that.

It’s always been true, my buddy says they would be so good if they weren’t so smart.

[makoman]

I’ll never hold that game against him. Coaches admitted to making no adjustments from their matchup two weeks prior. Where they won. They thought they would just line up and do it again. It was obvious the Chargers brought a look they weren’t expecting and had no answers for.

I think Stanley was tipping the plays too, but I could be wrong, it’s been a while.

[NewMarketSean]

The Ravens way of “getting smarter” would look like Dan Campbell on Sunday. No thanks to that.

It’s always been true, my buddy says they would be so good if they weren’t so smart.

 

Smarter as in, doing the thing that got you there.

 

The Ravens take the prom queen to the prom and spend the whole time ignoring her while trying to hook up with a 6, and end up going home alone.

[Ravens2006]

Allen still gets blamed for "losing to Mahomes" in that playoff game a few years even though he threw the go ahead touchdown and the Bills defense couldn't stop the Chiefs with 13 seconds left.

 

Exactly.  Team game.  

[Mike in STL]

I was starting think if the lack of run plays was thanks to only having the ball for 9 minutes in the first half. Breaking it down

 

Drive 1

Hill run for 1, LJ scramble for 2, 3rd & 7 Inc. Punt

It's drive 1. It's whatever.

 

Drive 2

Inc. Pass for 9. 3rd &1 Hill run for 0. 4th and 1 LJ run for 21. Gus run for 15. LJ 30-yard pass TD

Nitpick that Gus, not Justice should get the 3rd and 1 carry. All worked out though.

 

Drive 3

Pass for 9. Inc. 3rd & 1 Hill run for 2. 1st & 10, LJ sack fumble. 

Nitpick, if you run on 1st & 10, sack fumble doesn't happen. Things were going fine so far. 

 

Drive 4

LJ designed run for 5. Pass for 13. 1st & 10 Flowers run for 1. Inc. Inc. Punt.

Could have ran again on 2nd and 9, not 3rd and 9 though.

 

Drive 5

Pass for 6. 2-minute warning. 2nd & 4 Inc. 3rd & 4 Inc. Punt.

They were on their own 47 with 2 minutes to go in the half. Timeouts left. One of those needs to be a read option, or slam it in there twice with Gus. Didn't need the deep shot to Agholor. You basically want to end the half with a score. They gave KC the ball back with a ton of time, they kicked a FG. 

This is the first drive I'd really criticize the play calling. 

 

Halftime

 

Drive 6

Gus run for 1, Flowers run for 3, Inc. Punt.

Typical

 

Drive 7

Pass for 17, LJ Scramble for 11, Inc. Pass for 11. Pass for 5. Holding, 2nd & 5 becomes 2nd & 15. Pass for 6. 3rd and 9 at the KC 41, sacked for -8. Punt.

This is on Lamar. Seen this all year, sacked on the border of FG range. 3rd and 9 at the 41 is also 4 down territory for Harbaugh. If you gain 4 or 5, they are going for it. 

 

Drive 8

Pass for 54 yards. Taunting puts the ball at the KC 25 instead of the 10. Pass for 14. Pass for 2. Pass for 8, Zay fumble.

Passing game is working. 

 

Drive 9

I don't think we need to break down each play at this point.  They moved the ball downfield with ease passing the ball until LJ decided to throw into triple coverage, interception.

 

Drive 10 

It's hurry up at this point. FG, never got the ball back. 

 

I put drive 5 on the coaches. Drive 7 and 9 on Lamar. Drive 8 is on Flowers. I think things are different if you use Gus instead of Flowers on some of those run plays. I hate jet sweeps. Guys running 20 yards to gain 2. Also needed more designed LJ runs. It's the playoffs, and it's a weapon they deployed only twice by design. 

[mdrunning]

The overemphasis on whether a guy has won a ring in relation to his greatness is silly to me.  Peyton was 3-6 in the playoffs through 8 NFL seasons before he won a ring.  His first ring, he was pretty bad in the playoffs himself, the Colts just found a run game and a run defense for the first time in ages (notice the irony of that fact right now).  They couldn't have stopped a slow fat FB from rushing for 150 in the regular season if their lives depended on it... but some January they played like a different unit on defense.  

In Manning's first six seasons with the Colts, they ranked 29th in scoring defense, while the Ravens in Lamar's first six seasons the Ravens have ranked second. Quite a difference. Manning, however, signed his first pro contract in the days before the rookie cap, and as a result, his six-year $46.3 million deal (a record at the time) no doubt hindered the Colts' efforts to build a team around him. Plus, as the first player taken in that 1998 draft, Manning went to a lousy team, which is usually the fate of quarterbacks taken that high.

 

Lamar, by contrast, as the No. 32 pick overall in 2018, had the fortune of landing with a winning organization. And his rookie deal, unlike Manning's was only taking up a small fraction of his team's salary cap. Now he'll carry cap numbers of $32.4 million to $74.7 million over the next four seasons, although those numbers could obviously be reduced in a number of ways. I think this is why this year's loss stings perhaps even more so than four years ago; the Ravens had a dynamic quarterback and a top-5 defense to go along with him yet still fell short. It's going to be tough for them to maintain that defensive excellence although they did fare pretty well on that front after they signed Flacco to a huge extension.

[JoyinMudville]

This. I feel like the Ravens continually get out coached in the playoffs. While it is ultimately up to the players to deliver and not muck it up, this team was not able to control its emotions on the field. At some point the coaches have to step in and try to right the ship.

 

 

I’ll never hold that game against him. Coaches admitted to making no adjustments from their matchup two weeks prior. Where they won. They thought they would just line up and do it again. It was obvious the Chargers brought a look they weren’t expecting and had no answers for.

[hallas]

In Manning's first six seasons with the Colts, they ranked 29th in scoring defense, while the Ravens in Lamar's first six seasons the Ravens have ranked second. Quite a difference. Manning, however, signed his first pro contract in the days before the rookie cap, and as a result, his six-year $46.3 million deal (a record at the time) no doubt hindered the Colts' efforts to build a team around him. Plus, as the first player taken in that 1998 draft, Manning went to a lousy team, which is usually the fate of quarterbacks taken that high.

Lamar, by contrast, as the No. 32 pick overall in 2018, had the fortune of landing with a winning organization. And his rookie deal, unlike Manning's was only taking up a small fraction of his team's salary cap. Now he'll carry cap numbers of $32.4 million to $74.7 million over the next four seasons, although those numbers could obviously be reduced in a number of ways. I think this is why this year's loss stings perhaps even more so than four years ago; the Ravens had a dynamic quarterback and a top-5 defense to go along with him yet still fell short. It's going to be tough for them to maintain that defensive excellence although they did fare pretty well on that front after they signed Flacco to a huge extension.

Lamar was successful before getting hurt on the franchise tag so I let him play on a 32m cap number and worry about 2025 when it comes. The cap should come in around 240-250m so I think we can field a team with 32m going to Lamar. 2025 will be a season when we have to make choices.

[85Knight]

Despite the running game not going the way we thought it would most of us thought that the only way we could lose was because of turnovers and that's exactly what happened. If we get those 2 tds instead of turning it over we might not even be talking about the lack of a running. The narrative changes and we're probably talking about the adjustments they made in the 2nd half on offense.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

 

 

 

Some people wont watch. Some will bury their head and not listen and just say 6 RB carries!!!!! OMG. 6 RB carries!!!! OMG. Its such a weak uninformed take. If you want to break down the damn play by plays and what KC was doing vs us and debate thats one thing. But someone just saying 6 RB carries shouldn't be taken seriously

[mdrunning]

They were discussing this 105.7 The Fan this morning and Vinny was saying that the Ravens didn't have much success running wide since Kansas City pursues very well. If they were going to run, going between the tackles would have been the better play (and I think Edwards' 15-yarder was an off-tackle run). I don't remember the specifics of the Buffalo-KC divisional game, but I'm guessing that's where much of the Bills' success on the ground was generated.