33 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

The Ringer: NFL Teams Said They Didn’t Want Lamar Jackson. What Were They Really Saying?

[BaltBird 24]

You almost have to consider that maybe the owners did collude together to make sure that the Watson deal was an anomaly and not to become the norm. Unlikely, but something to consider.

Also, the health concerns were real and I'm sure there's some stigma around the league that he's still wasn't a great passing QB.

[jamesdean]

I absolutely believed the owners colluded with each other in keeping the Watson contract from ever happening again. That certainly created a very real leverage point for EDC and he used it. When Lamar demanded a trade, EDC had to know that there would be few if any owners interested in pursuing it, thus leaving only three options- Lamar sits out the season, he signs the franchise tag or a long term deal gets worked out. Fortunately, the situation never got ugly and Baltimore retained a great quarterback for years to come.

[SonicAttack]

"Jackson eventually signed a five-year, $260 million contract with the Ravens that briefly made him the highest-paid player in NFL history. (Justin Herbert and Joe Burrow each surpassed him when they signed their new contracts later in 2023.)"

 

Colluded to keep Lamar's contract down, then surpassed it on Herbert and Burrow.  Cool.  Lamar is better then both of them, close to Mahomes.  

[Mackus]

Colluded to keep Lamar's contract down, then surpassed it on Herbert and Burrow. Cool. Lamar is better then both of them, close to Mahomes. [/font][/color][/size]

No, they colluded to keep all of them from getting a fully guaranteed deal. Total dollars aren't the concern from the league, it's the full guarantee. Lamar was the real test case since he was a free agent and could negotiate with multiple teams.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

They def made a point not to give fully guarantees. That 100% was collusion. But yeah that wasnt just a Lamar thing. Became a Burrow thing too essentially. We have to remember the narrative regarding Lamar after finishing 2 straight seasons on the injuried list and then all the stupid questions about his heart and desire and if he couldve played. All of that was real. Some of us were still counting our stars no other team made a strong push for him but that wasnt the consensus from Ravens fans

[hallas]

"Jackson eventually signed a five-year, $260 million contract with the Ravens that briefly made him the highest-paid player in NFL history. (Justin Herbert and Joe Burrow each surpassed him when they signed their new contracts later in 2023.)"

Colluded to keep Lamar's contract down, then surpassed it on Herbert and Burrow. Cool. Lamar is better then both of them, close to Mahomes.

I wonder how that debate is going to go if we win the SB. Mahomes will have him beat on SBs but their hardware cabinets will otherwise be fairly comparable. If the Ravens snag a 2nd down the road with Lamar the discussion on that will certainly get interesting. The injury situations cost Lamar a couple years and they were pretty unfortunate. Not just with Lamar but also with the team surrounding him. And his last playoff game getting knocked out of the game by a bad snap was pretty bad luck.

[Mackus]

I don't think anyone is on Mahomes' tier, but Lamar compares to anyone else. Won't always have the best season of everyone like he has this year, and you can rearrange guys on each tier in many orders as time goes by, but I wouldn't swap him for any of those other guys.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I do think Lamar's shelf life will be shorter than others. We all know he can throw. Hes a QB and I for one have said as much from pretty much the jump. Thats said, his athleticism and the scare that brings to DCs and opponents is still his biggest asset. Hes the first true dual threat stud. As the elite athleticism lowers it will allow opponents to focus more on the true passing aspects of the game. Tighten throwing windows. Less worried about staying in deciplined rush lanes. Im not saying hes going to fall off a cliff but I dont know that he will be an MVP caliber talent at 30

[hallas]

I do think Lamar's shelf life will be shorter than others. We all know he can throw. Hes a QB and I for one have said as much from pretty much the jump. Thats said, his athleticism and the scare that brings to DCs and opponents is still his biggest asset. Hes the first true dual threat stud. As the elite athleticism lowers it will allow opponents to focus more on the true passing aspects of the game. Tighten throwing windows. Less worried about staying in deciplined rush lanes. Im not saying hes going to fall off a cliff but I dont know that he will be an MVP caliber talent at 30

His development in managing a real passing game has changed my assessment of him. I am comfortable saying that, assuming health, he can be elite into his mid 30s, especially if he doesnt have serious regression next year. He won't lose enough athleticism ever to make defenses forget about his scrambling. He won't be running for 50 yards down field anymore but he will still be more dangerous than most QBs.

Guys like Burrow are a blown knee from being too immobile for the modern QB position. And he (and Allen) for example take a ton of big hits. So I don't really worry about the injury risk like I used to. It's the NFL, he might get injured tomorrow.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Im assuming no major injuries. Hes an elite QB. I want to make that clear. I dont think hes an elite passer though. I think he still doesnt anticipate particularly well. Ball placement/accuracy still not great. I do agree he will always have enough athleticism to concern teams I just think as the years go by teams wont be shitting themselves worrying about it and they will be able to counter other more traditional aspects of QBing. That said, it is possible he continues to develop his pure passing skills. If he does he can make up for any lost athleticism.

[hallas]

Im assuming no major injuries. Hes an elite QB. I want to make that clear. I dont think hes an elite passer though. I think he still doesnt anticipate particularly well. Ball placement/accuracy still not great. I do agree he will always have enough athleticism to concern teams I just think as the years go by teams wont be shitting themselves worrying about it and they will be able to counter other more traditional aspects of QBing. That said, it is possible he continues to develop his pure passing skills. If he does he can make up for any lost athleticism.

 

 

I think his touch and timing is drastically improved this year to the point where he belongs in the conversation with the best in the league as a passer.  This is the 2nd year in a row where he's been the best in the league on midrange throws.  His touch on short passes I think is much improved compared to early in his career.  His ball placement on those passes is almost always purposeful and you're rarely left wondering why he threw it behind someone and left his receiver out to dry.  He showed flashes of it in 2022 but it wasn't consistent, but he's had it pretty much all year this year.  The work he's put into shoring up these weaknesses have made it so he's not that far behind other QBs now from the pocket, and I think it's really helped his consistency.  He hasn't really had a "bad" game this year.  I think the Steelers game was his worst EPA game, and that game he was "helped" by 5 drops and Zay falling down mid-route.  And his deep ball accuracy has been way better this year as well. Guys like Dak and Burrow and Herbert and Mahomes are a bit better pocket passers than Lamar, but I think it's really close. When you factor in his ability to buy time with his legs when the play goes off schedule, and his ability to make ridiculous off-platform throws, I think the whole package is that of an elite passer.  The only other guy on that list that can make a chicken sandwich out of chicken poop the way Lamar can is Mahomes.  Obviously his ability to avoid pressure with his legs factors into that and you can't really separate that from his passing skillset, but IMO it still counts toward his passing as long as the play results in a thrown pass.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

 

 

Warner talks about Lamar not being on schedule enough in this SF video breakdown. Its why I think he will struggle as he gets older unless he gets more consistent at being on schedule. To be fair Warner came right back after the Miami game and made another video praising Lamar for all the on schedule plays he made in that game. He def has it in him to be  better and more consistently on schedule  and again the overall takeaway here is his amazing ability to be so productive off script. Its why I agree that he and only a few other QBs are in a class by themselves right now.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Warner's Miami breakdown

 

[Ravens2006]

I'm sure there was some "collusion". There's collusion on all sides at times. When the NFLPA encourages a guy to do something to benefit them / other players, that is collusion. When the MLB union gave Mussina grief for taking a fairly team-friendly deal from the Orioles for a few years before he eventually bolted for NY, that was part of player collusion. 

 

Watson's deal was beyond all norms, like it or not. The rest of the league doesn't want to do that, nor let it become the new norm. Because football is a very injury prone sport and fully guaranteeing long term big dollars can seriously hamstring a team in a salary cap system. And the salary cap system is a big part of why a Baltimore squad is 13-3 and #1 seed in the AFC right now... because the Giants can't just outbid everyone else by 15 million a year for Lamar Jackson.

 

Throw in finishing the prior 2 seasons basically on IR, and there were plenty of good reasons for other teams not to give Lamar a Watson+ deal.  

 

Said it before too, but Newsome before and DeCosta now, and all of their support staff, do a fantastic job annually of evaluating what the market is going to be like for players a year or two ahead. They have a strong and fairly accurate sense of who is going to be in high demand, who isn't, who might get cut loose from other teams (expected or unexpected), who can fit in with their roster, etc.  DeCosta and company never blinked even when Lamar played what he probably thought was his Ace in the hole and penned his goodbye letter to the fans. It wasn't just 32 owners on a Zoom call laying out a common playbook about Lamar... a lot of that was the Ravens management knowing what the threats were considering other team's needs, who already had a young QB / recent pick that still needs evaluation time, salary cap situations, loss of 2 top draft picks, injuries, etc. and they played out their hand. They "won" to an extent. Lamar still got a great deal. The Ravens avoided the full guarantee. And now other squads can deal with the headache that the Watson foolishness created.

[Mackus]

I'm sure there was some "collusion". There's collusion on all sides at times. When the NFLPA encourages a guy to do something to benefit them / other players, that is collusion. 

 

The union is legally allowed to collude, organized negotiation is the very essence of what a union does in general.  The owners are not allowed to collude, and if it could be proven they did then the league would face a lawsuit from the players worth billions.

[Mike in STL]

The union is legally allowed to collude, organized negotiation is the very essence of what a union does in general. The owners are not allowed to collude, and if it could be proven they did then the league would face a lawsuit from the players worth billions.

What do you think goes on at the owners meetings every year?

Bisciotti publicly said he hopes the Watson deal doesn’t become the norm, 10 feet from the hotel where the meeting was. You think they didn’t talk about it amongst themselves?

[mdrunning]

The union is legally allowed to collude, organized negotiation is the very essence of what a union does in general.  The owners are not allowed to collude, and if it could be proven they did then the league would face a lawsuit from the players worth billions.

I think that would fall under the definition of collective bargaining than collusion. However, I would think there is language in the CBA which prohibits both players and owners from "acting in concert."

[Ravens2006]

I guess what I'm saying is, the players collude for what they perceive is the betterment of the players, the owners collude for what they perceive is the betterment of the league as a whole.  Whether the owners are supposed to do that is sort of irrelevant to me.  Some of it I probably agree with, some of it I probably disagree with.  The league is by far the most popular and most hyped major sport in the country, has been for some time, and will likely remain so for a long time forward.  All that aside, Lamar's contract result wasn't JUST the result of collusion and 31 other owners sitting around saying "Hey Steve, we're gonna let you win this one to prove a point".  I think it was more a result of the Ravens front office looking at EVERYTHING and every possible angle that could have played out (also factoring in, I'm SURE, a league-wide sentiment that Watson's deal was irresponsible for the league as a whole)... and the Ravens "won".  But so did Lamar, in my opinion.  Everybody won a bit, and the team is winning in large part because of it too.  Steve and Eric and Sashi didn't throw a tantrum when Lamar wrote his goodbye message to the fans.  They didn't overreact, cave in, decide to cut bait, etc. They played out their hand and, to me, basically split the pot with Lamar in the end.

 

To add on a bit... look at the teams mentioned in that article as being potentially the most interested in Lamar... Atlanta, Carolina, Las Vegas, Washington, and the Jets.  Any of those franchises strike fear in folks on the player personnel decision front???  Don't we think the Ravens would look at the same and know that they're not exactly competing against the most astute strategists when it comes to Lamar's services.  In the division... The Steelers had Pickett (a recent 1st round pick), the Bengals and Browns were set with Burrow and Watson, so divisional foes weren't much of a threat.  Patriots?  Mac Jones, first round pick who showed some promise and won 10 games his rookie season, completed about 67% through his first two years.  Giants?  Daniel Jones, a 1st round pick they were giving one more year to.  So on and so forth...

 

Call it the Kyle Boller scenario... first round pick at QB who the team was still willing to "see which way it goes" for one more year.  Justin Fields has had a few decent games lately and now Chicago is rumored to be all in on another year with him, when after a few ugly performances early in the year you would have bet big on his being demoted / gone.  Kyler Murray in ARI, showed flashes good and bad, maybe more good but not exactly an "elite" talent in my eyes... got himself an extension the year before.  Between teams that have a guy, or are at least already stuck with a commitment to a guy, and the QBs available in the draft (much much cheaper, lottery tickets), you narrow down the ACTUAL list of candidates to a select few. 

 

I really hope the Steelers stay in the Kenny Pickett phase for a while.  I think he's just good enough to keep them from being a legit top end threat for a few years, if that makes sense.

[mdrunning]

Collusion or not, no other team was going to get Lamar because the Ravens were never going to let him walk. He was a free agent, yes, but no in the truest sense of the word. Any team hoping to sign him was going to have to fork over two first-round draft picks as well as a contract similar to that of DeShaun Watson. Hardly the definition of "free."