26 replies to this topic

[BSLLukeRollfinke]

BSL: Should Jordan Westburg Be The Everyday Second Baseman?

https://baltimorespo...second-baseman/

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Yes. But it won't happen at this point until next season. Hyde is just totally enamored with the right/lefty matchup stuff even if the data says otherwise. But its working so what the heck.

[Nigel Tufnel]

This is a timely article, the day after Frazier got the biggest hit of the season.

[Mackus]

This is a timely article, the day after Frazier got the biggest hit of the season.

 

Yeah, I'll give Frazier a day without any criticism for that

[BSLSteveBirrer]

There is a difference between saying Westburg should be playing most everyday and criticizing Frazier. Westburg should start most every day and no problem having Frazier on the roster this year. Next year probably a different story.

[85Knight]

Surprisingly Frazier has been clutch and a big part of this team despite our doubts all season. Westburg will start next season but it's hard to argue with how they've used Frazier this season.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

There def is a scenario where Westburg is squeezed out. Holliday is likely the eventual 2b. I think Gunnar the SS for at least '24. We will see how he ages at the position. Westburg to me has struggled more defensively at 3b than 2b just on eye test. Plus his bat will play better as a 2b vs 3b. So it will be interesting to see how they proceed for '24 and beyond. Still a glut of inf guys between the MLB/AAA levels.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Been thinking about this lately and what the O;s should do this offseason. There is clearly a jam in the infield. Maybe a good article to look at all the players, current roster and in the farm that are likely to be MLB at least some time next season. Just a suggestion Chris.

 

But we have:

 

Henderson, Westburg, Urias, Frazier, Mateo, Holliday, Mayo, and Ortiz. And that doesn't count Mountcastle and O'Hearn.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Im sure Phelan knows why but I noticed Ortiz has again missed a decent amount of time of late in AAA. He cant be trusted to play 140 or 150 games a year. Im still a huge fan but the semi regular injuries are building up

[Mike B]

Im sure Phelan knows why but I noticed Ortiz has again missed a decent amount of time of late in AAA. He cant be trusted to play 140 or 150 games a year. Im still a huge fan but the semi regular injuries are building up

I thought I read it was an oblique.

[Mike B]

Yeah, I'll give Frazier a day without any criticism for that

I will never again wonder why Adam Frazier is on this team.  That was one terrific at bat under the most intense pressure.  Hats off to you Adam Frazier.

 

That said, I believe in Westburg both offensively and defensively at second base.  So yes, he should be the starter at 2b next year.

[CantonJester]

Westburg is *a lot* better than Frazier at second base. 

 

Be it Range Runs Above Avg, Double Play Runs Above Avg, UZR, UZR/150. They all say the same thing: Westburg is one of the better (and some instances, nearly the best) second basemen in the game, and Frazier is middling or at the bottom. 

 

https://www.fangraph...=2&pageitems=30

[makoman]

Im sure Phelan knows why but I noticed Ortiz has again missed a decent amount of time of late in AAA. He cant be trusted to play 140 or 150 games a year. Im still a huge fan but the semi regular injuries are building up

He did manage 600 PAs last year so he has it in him. Maybe just a bad luck year. Mildly concerning I’ll agree.

[BSLLukeRollfinke]

This is a timely article, the day after Frazier got the biggest hit of the season.

Unfortunately I had written most of it before the game and wasn't going to abandon it afterward. Still, I think all of points made are valid. While Frazier has been clutch, all of the metrics say Westburg is being under-utilized. Hyde is working wonders with this lineup and deserves credit for it, but there's no denying Westburg is the second baseman of the future. 

[BSLLukeRollfinke]

Been thinking about this lately and what the O;s should do this offseason. There is clearly a jam in the infield. Maybe a good article to look at all the players, current roster and in the farm that are likely to be MLB at least some time next season. Just a suggestion Chris.

 

But we have:

 

Henderson, Westburg, Urias, Frazier, Mateo, Holliday, Mayo, and Ortiz. And that doesn't count Mountcastle and O'Hearn.

 

Definitely a significant logjam going on in the system. That being said, I think it's pretty clear who has a future here and who doesn't. Gunnar and Holliday are probably the starting shortstop and third baseman moving forward, while Westburg takes over second and Ortiz is the ultra-utility man. Frazier will be gone after this year and I think Urias and Mateo will follow by the end of 2024 (especially since Bradfield Jr.'s speed all but eliminates the need for another glove-first speedster). Mayo can find time between DH, 3B, 1B, and maybe even corner outfield, while Mountcastle and O'Hearn continue platooning at first. The only one I can't figure out is Norby. He seems to have graduated Triple-A but there's almost no room for him in Baltimore. Have to imagine he is at least involved in trade talks this winter. 

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Definitely a significant logjam going on in the system. That being said, I think it's pretty clear who has a future here and who doesn't. Gunnar and Holliday are probably the starting shortstop and third baseman moving forward, while Westburg takes over second and Ortiz is the ultra-utility man. Frazier will be gone after this year and I think Urias and Mateo will follow by the end of 2024 (especially since Bradfield Jr.'s speed all but eliminates the need for another glove-first speedster). Mayo can find time between DH, 3B, 1B, and maybe even corner outfield, while Mountcastle and O'Hearn continue platooning at first. The only one I can't figure out is Norby. He seems to have graduated Triple-A but there's almost no room for him in Baltimore. Have to imagine he is at least involved in trade talks this winter. 

Luke I don't disagree with that general assessment but have a different or maybe additional thought. 

 

If you think Gunnar at third and Holliday at short and Westburg at second (which I do). Now you have Mayo, Ortiz, Norby, Frazier, Urias, and Mateo. I think you laid out the simple answer but I am not sure that its maybe the best one because I think I'd look real hard to see what I could get with some package around Ortiz, Norby, Mayo, and Cowser in a starting pitcher. Not that any of those guys aren't valuable on the roster but they might have more value in trading for a piece that we need more than a utility role? 

 

Frazier is a FA. He's signed for $8M which is probably more than you'd need to pay out next year but not too much if trading a cheaper but more cost controlled guy got you a front end starter.

Mateo is a arb eligible. But he's cheap at only $2M. Good glove although its tapered off but man that speed.

Urias is also arb eligible. Better overall defender than Mateo and better hitter but not the speed.

 

Fact is with Gunnar, Westburg, and Holliday you only need to keep two from the rest. Maybe Mayo and Urias or Mateo is solid and you have some great trade chips?

[hallas]

Luke I don't disagree with that general assessment but have a different or maybe additional thought. 

 

If you think Gunnar at third and Holliday at short and Westburg at second (which I do). Now you have Mayo, Ortiz, Norby, Frazier, Urias, and Mateo. I think you laid out the simple answer but I am not sure that its maybe the best one because I think I'd look real hard to see what I could get with some package around Ortiz, Norby, Mayo, and Cowser in a starting pitcher. Not that any of those guys aren't valuable on the roster but they might have more value in trading for a piece that we need more than a utility role? 

 

Frazier is a FA. He's signed for $8M which is probably more than you'd need to pay out next year but not too much if trading a cheaper but more cost controlled guy got you a front end starter.

Mateo is a arb eligible. But he's cheap at only $2M. Good glove although its tapered off but man that speed.

Urias is also arb eligible. Better overall defender than Mateo and better hitter but not the speed.

 

Fact is with Gunnar, Westburg, and Holliday you only need to keep two from the rest. Maybe Mayo and Urias or Mateo is solid and you have some great trade chips?

 

Would you rather trade prospects or would you rather trade guys like Hays/Santander/Mountcastle?  I feel like one of those 3 should be traded, maybe packaged with a prospect.

[BSLLukeRollfinke]

Luke I don't disagree with that general assessment but have a different or maybe additional thought. 

 

If you think Gunnar at third and Holliday at short and Westburg at second (which I do). Now you have Mayo, Ortiz, Norby, Frazier, Urias, and Mateo. I think you laid out the simple answer but I am not sure that its maybe the best one because I think I'd look real hard to see what I could get with some package around Ortiz, Norby, Mayo, and Cowser in a starting pitcher. Not that any of those guys aren't valuable on the roster but they might have more value in trading for a piece that we need more than a utility role? 

 

Frazier is a FA. He's signed for $8M which is probably more than you'd need to pay out next year but not too much if trading a cheaper but more cost controlled guy got you a front end starter.

Mateo is a arb eligible. But he's cheap at only $2M. Good glove although its tapered off but man that speed.

Urias is also arb eligible. Better overall defender than Mateo and better hitter but not the speed.

 

Fact is with Gunnar, Westburg, and Holliday you only need to keep two from the rest. Maybe Mayo and Urias or Mateo is solid and you have some great trade chips?

 

I don't disagree that trading some of those pieces could net a great return in the form of a starting pitcher. That being said, I think it's important to remember who owns this team. Young and talented infielders are a lot cheaper than an experienced starting pitcher, and with the assumption that very few Orioles are going to receive long-term extensions, keeping a young core of prospects coming up year-after-year is going to be the only way this team remains relevant beyond 2027. I am of the opinion that you need to capitalize now and go win a world series while you can, but everything Elias and Angelos have done suggests they have a different philosophy. I think we will see another offseason go by with very little trade action and very few free agent additions. I expect a slight upgrade to Gibson and maybe a Norby trade to bring in an above average bullpen arm, but beyond that, I expect 2024's starting roster to be made up of the current roster and some additions from Triple-A. That leaves a starting rotation of Bradish, Rodriguez, Kremer, Means, and one FA, which is a significant upgrade over what we have had in the past but still not what fans are going to be hoping for. 

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Would you rather trade prospects or would you rather trade guys like Hays/Santander/Mountcastle?  I feel like one of those 3 should be traded, maybe packaged with a prospect.

All depends on the return.

Hays - probably not trading him as he's inexpensive, decent hitter, terrific defensively and nobody is knocking down the door for LF.

 

Mountcastle - Not sure who I feel here. If you asked me before the ASB I'd have said trade him. Now not so sure. I don't know enough about Mayo as to whether he's likely to at least be as good as Mounty.

 

Santander - really depends on return for him. He's streaky as heck but he still leads the team in HRs and RBIs. And again don't have any corner OFers for sure pushing him out. Cowser has been not very good (10 -48) since going back down.

 

So next year out of ST my 4 OFers would be Hays, Mullins, Santander, and Kjerstad/McKenna. Hopefully with Kjerstad winning the starting job. I lean toward trading Cowser with another piece for the SP which I want and the only way I think we get at least a solid #3 or hopefully a #2 is via trade. 

[BobPhelan]

Im sure Phelan knows why but I noticed Ortiz has again missed a decent amount of time of late in AAA. He cant be trusted to play 140 or 150 games a year. Im still a huge fan but the semi regular injuries are building up

 

Yeah, oblique. So maybe my idea of him rotating as the reserve infielder not so bad afterall?