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College Football 2023: General Talk (Michigan Wins Title)


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#581 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 04 December 2023 - 10:24 AM

So lets put aside the FSU argument as to why they got left out.

 

So now you have to decide among these.

 

Michigan - Undefeated and beat Ohio State. SOS 51

Georgia - One 3 point loss to Alabama. SOS 63

Washington - Undefeated. Beat Oregon twice. SOS 54

Texas - One loss to Oklahoma. Beat Alabama at Tuscaloosa. SOS 21

Alabama - One loss to Texas at home by 10 points. SOS 31

 

So if I was king for a day.

Michigan and Washington are clearly in. No debate in my mind.

Now there are good arguments to be made for all three of the rest. I take Georgia and Texas. Alabama had the worst loss of those three teams. So suck it Tide.


How is Alabama losing to Texas a worse loss than Texas losing to Oklahoma?    

Cause of being at home vs. neutral field? Okay, but Texas is better than Oklahoma. 

 


And there are numerous criteria points to look at, one being conference champion.
Bama wins the Conference, gets the H2H, that gives them the vault. 

Then with Bama in, they take Texas, as Texas is also a Conference Champ, and had the H2H at Bama. 

 

Washington gets in for what I said above.

Michigan gets in for being undefeated in a stronger league than the ACC, and not being on to a 3rd string QB. 



#582 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 04 December 2023 - 10:32 AM

They were selecting 4 teams. 

The outrage of a Power 5 team being left out was always there. 

 

Hypothetically every year you could have had 5 undefeated P5 teams, and one of them would have had to been excluded. 

 

FSU was ahead of Bama in the penultimate poll, because they were undefeated in a P5... had the neutral field vs. LSU, won at Clemson, beat Florida...  but frankly once Travis was hurt, they probably should have been knocked down further. 

 

Georgia is probably (I say probably because of the injuries they have suffered, and an offense that has never looked that great for an elite team this year) better than multiple teams in the F4, but they didn't end their resume with a conference championship. 

 

 

Will be interesting to see that Georgia / FSU game, if both teams show up relatively healthy and motivated. 

 

 

BTW, I've always kinda liked the Noles going back to the Charlie Ward days.
I spent a good portion of the year on the podcast talking about how I think FSU was being overlooked a bit.
Also, I wouldn't say I despise Alabama, but I'm not a fan of the SEC at all, and I'd like to see them take it on the chin.

But I just can't fault the Selection Committee taking Bama over FSU at this point.

I think it was Orlovsky on Get Up this morning who said, FSU today is not the team that went undefeated during the year, and I think that's right. Same uniform, but just a different team right now.  They equated it to the NFL and looking at the Bengals with and without Burrow.  With a healthy Burrow, many saw Cincinnati as the team to watch in the AFC a month ago.  With him gone, obviously not so much.

 

It sucks that FSU can't get on the field and compete with who they have, and that's why I'm glad the field is expanding.  



#583 Mike in STL

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Posted 04 December 2023 - 10:44 AM


Pac 12 was arguably the best conference all year. 
They beat the #8 overall team twice. 

Were they? 

 

They have 3 teams with 9+ wins. Only 2 conferences in FBS don't have that. The Big Ten had 4 teams with 10+ wins. SEC had 4 with 10+ and 5 with 9+. 

 

I'm not arguing that Washington shouldn't be in. They won all their games. Properly ranked ahead of Florida State if comparing the two entering the weekend. But for the "4 best teams crowd", Washington isn't one of them. It appears to me the Washington is in because their previous weeks rankings said so and they won their last game, so they don't fall in the rankings. Which is not what happened to Florida State. 

 

They couldn't go full on "4 best teams" because two undefeated would be left out. They couldn't leave an SEC team out because that would be sacrilege. So, they split the difference. 


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#584 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 04 December 2023 - 10:52 AM

Were they? 

 

They have 3 teams with 9+ wins. Only 2 conferences in FBS don't have that. The Big Ten had 4 teams with 10+ wins. SEC had 4 with 10+ and 5 with 9+. 

 

I'm not arguing that Washington shouldn't be in. They won all their games. Properly ranked ahead of Florida State if comparing the two entering the weekend. But for the "4 best teams crowd", Washington isn't one of them. It appears to me the Washington is in because their previous weeks rankings said so and they won their last game, so they don't fall in the rankings. Which is not what happened to Florida State. 

 

They couldn't go full on "4 best teams" because two undefeated would be left out. They couldn't leave an SEC team out because that would be sacrilege. So, they split the difference. 


Can debate the strength, but doing so based on team win count seems limiting. 

Obviously not all playing the same schedules. 

If Team A has a weaker overall schedule, and beats up on weaker overall teams.... that doesn't mean they are necessarily better than Team B who has less overall wins, but played a harder overall schedule. 


By the CFP rankings, the SEC was clearly the best.  But they weren't great out of conference this year.
Pac 12 had some nice wins.  Thought the Pac 12 had a lot of balance this year top to bottom.  They did lose luster with USC unable to stop anyone defensively, and Utah dealing with their injuries.  


So end of the day, yeah... I can't make a case for the Pac 12 being the best overall by year end.... but in mid Oct or so, they had 7 or 8 teams ranked...  then the conference schedule took over, and they beat each other up.



#585 CantonJester

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Posted 04 December 2023 - 12:35 PM

FSU got screwed for reasons already defined, but I'll add one more to the pile:

 

If Alabama had the same SOS as FSU, was the undefeated champion of the SEC, but also lost their stud QB to a season ending injury, do you honestly think the committee would've penalized them to the point of omitting them from the CFP?

 

Of course they wouldn't. 

 

This is about the laundry and what draws the most viewers. 

 

Everything else is rationalizing away that reality. 


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#586 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 04 December 2023 - 12:37 PM

Also gotta consider that Vegas isn't setting lines to equalize the two teams. Point spreads are not a golf handicap. Oddsmakers are setting lines to equalize the public's opinion of the two teams. A perfect line isn't a game that ends up pushing but rather one that has 50% of money bet on each side.

 

Right, just saying in that case their instructions (if they were amenable) would simply be to pick who *they* would straight up favor, regardless of where they think the money will go.



#587 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 04 December 2023 - 04:08 PM

FSU got screwed for reasons already defined, but I'll add one more to the pile:

 

If Alabama had the same SOS as FSU, was the undefeated champion of the SEC, but also lost their stud QB to a season ending injury, do you honestly think the committee would've penalized them to the point of omitting them from the CFP?

 

Of course they wouldn't. 

 

This is about the laundry and what draws the most viewers. 

 

Everything else is rationalizing away that reality. 

 

Yes, I think they would have.   
Alabama isn't in the F4 because they have a larger National presence at this point than FSU; they are in the F4 solely because they're clearly the better team. 

 

Alabama had 4 ranked wins. FSU had 2.   FSU's best win, was Bama's 3rd best win.

Strength of Record: FSU 3, Bama 4

Strength of Schedule: FSU 55, Bama 5



#588 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 04 December 2023 - 07:55 PM

Heisman finalist list is out, and it’s exactly who you’d expect.

 

Jayden Daniels - QB, LSU

Marvin Harrison Jr. - WR, Ohio State

Bo Nix - QB, Oregon

Michael Penix Jr. - QB, Washington 



#589 CantonJester

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Posted 04 December 2023 - 09:48 PM

Yes, I think they would have.   
Alabama isn't in the F4 because they have a larger National presence at this point than FSU; they are in the F4 solely because they're clearly the better team. 

 

Alabama had 4 ranked wins. FSU had 2.   FSU's best win, was Bama's 3rd best win.

Strength of Record: FSU 3, Bama 4

Strength of Schedule: FSU 55, Bama 5

 

If that were the case, then why didn't they drop FSU out of the conversation as soon as Travis broke his leg? Because they were holding their cards to their chest in the event Alabama lost in the SEC title game. 

 

And LOL at trotting out ranked stats when the only one that should matter is Alabama isn't undefeated, yet FSU, is. Of course, until that no longer matters because #reasons. 



#590 CantonJester

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Posted 05 December 2023 - 12:21 AM

Seriously - This is all about laundry. And at the end of the day, FSU's (and Clemson's) departure from the ACC. 

 

I'm sure Maryland will benefit from this one day. Somehow. 



#591 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 05 December 2023 - 06:09 AM

If that were the case, then why didn't they drop FSU out of the conversation as soon as Travis broke his leg? Because they were holding their cards to their chest in the event Alabama lost in the SEC title game.

And LOL at trotting out ranked stats when the only one that should matter is Alabama isn't undefeated, yet FSU, is. Of course, until that no longer matters because #reasons.


One being undefeated and one not when you arent playing the same schedule is a ridiculous argument.

And yes...while I agree FSU should have been dropped further quicker after Travis...they were being evaluated under their 2nd and later 3rd string QBs and did not hold up well in that evaluation.

And yes...Bama was held back, as they had to beat the #1 overall and win the SEC to get in.

#592 Mike in STL

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Posted 05 December 2023 - 07:13 AM

One being undefeated and one not when you arent playing the same schedule is a ridiculous argument.

And yes...while I agree FSU should have been dropped further quicker after Travis...they were being evaluated under their 2nd and later 3rd string QBs and did not hold up well in that evaluation.

And yes...Bama was held back, as they had to beat the #1 overall and win the SEC to get in.


That doesn’t explain why Texas was held back. If Georgia wins, FSU is still out and Texas is the 4 seed according to how it played out.

I think scheduling matters a lot less in the P5 conferences. Obviously a team like Liberty isn’t in this conversation because of schedule. FSU did beat a top 5 team and the eventual heisman winner FWIW.

I don’t know why you’re so hellbent on their performance with a 3rd string QB (2nd string will be back anyway) when offense is only half the game. Yes I understand the committee takes the injury into account, but I don’t agree they should. For all we know it was a cop out to get Bama in, and with Bama in Texas had to be in.
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#593 Steve55

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Posted 05 December 2023 - 08:57 AM

They were selecting 4 teams. 

The outrage of a Power 5 team being left out was always there. 

 

Hypothetically every year you could have had 5 undefeated P5 teams, and one of them would have had to been excluded. 

 

FSU was ahead of Bama in the penultimate poll, because they were undefeated in a P5... had the neutral field vs. LSU, won at Clemson, beat Florida...  but frankly once Travis was hurt, they probably should have been knocked down further. 

 

Georgia is probably (I say probably because of the injuries they have suffered, and an offense that has never looked that great for an elite team this year) better than multiple teams in the F4, but they didn't end their resume with a conference championship. 

 

 

Will be interesting to see that Georgia / FSU game, if both teams show up relatively healthy and motivated. 

 

 

BTW, I've always kinda liked the Noles going back to the Charlie Ward days.
I spent a good portion of the year on the podcast talking about how I think FSU was being overlooked a bit.
Also, I wouldn't say I despise Alabama, but I'm not a fan of the SEC at all, and I'd like to see them take it on the chin.

But I just can't fault the Selection Committee taking Bama over FSU at this point.

I think it was Orlovsky on Get Up this morning who said, FSU today is not the team that went undefeated during the year, and I think that's right. Same uniform, but just a different team right now.  They equated it to the NFL and looking at the Bengals with and without Burrow.  With a healthy Burrow, many saw Cincinnati as the team to watch in the AFC a month ago.  With him gone, obviously not so much.

 

It sucks that FSU can't get on the field and compete with who they have, and that's why I'm glad the field is expanding.  

 

 

 

And then Burrow's backup throws for over 350 yrds and beats Jacksonville.



#594 Steve55

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Posted 05 December 2023 - 09:05 AM

That doesn’t explain why Texas was held back. If Georgia wins, FSU is still out and Texas is the 4 seed according to how it played out.

I think scheduling matters a lot less in the P5 conferences. Obviously a team like Liberty isn’t in this conversation because of schedule. FSU did beat a top 5 team and the eventual heisman winner FWIW.

I don’t know why you’re so hellbent on their performance with a 3rd string QB (2nd string will be back anyway) when offense is only half the game. Yes I understand the committee takes the injury into account, but I don’t agree they should. For all we know it was a cop out to get Bama in, and with Bama in Texas had to be in.

 

 

That's the question about Texas. 8 seed Bama beats 1 seed Georgia. 7 seed Texas beats 18 seed Okla St. 4 seed Fl St beats 15 seed Louisville. But somehow Texas jumps to 3 and Alabama 4 only because Texas won a head to head week 2 of the season. If they had to have an SEC team in they should have left Texas out. Then Texas is upset because they beat Alabama..



#595 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 05 December 2023 - 11:55 AM



I don’t know why you’re so hellbent on their performance with a 3rd string QB (2nd string will be back anyway) when offense is only half the game. Yes I understand the committee takes the injury into account, but I don’t agree they should. For all we know it was a cop out to get Bama in, and with Bama in Texas had to be in.


I don't know why you would pretend they are the same team with Travis out.  They aren't. It's obvious. 

Re: Texas... it's the same as Alabama... they were held back... they were behind, they had to officially win their conference to get in.  After the Conference Championship games.... Texas looked better vs Ok State than FSU did vs. Louisville... it looked like Texas belonged...  but Texas was also helped by Alabama beating Georgia.    Bama beats #1, but Texas beat Bama.   So, Bama is going in after beating #1 and being the SEC champ... so Texas is going to, since they're the Big 12 champ, and won at Bama.  And on top of those things... you have FSU not looking the same.



#596 Mike in STL

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Posted 05 December 2023 - 01:35 PM


I don't know why you would pretend they are the same team with Travis out. They aren't. It's obvious.

Well for two weeks the committee thought they were. That’s the frustrating part. If it supposed to play a role, have FSU on the outside looking in before Saturday. Tell everyone it’s a factor, and they have to prove something

I dont think Texas looked any better than FSU. Unless you look at points scored, which, you’re smarter than that. Louisville scores about 30 a game and FSU held them to 6. OKST scores 29 a game and Texas held to 21. Louisville also the higher ranked team, much better defensively than OKST. 21st in scoring versus 90th. You can continue to ignore that if you want. If anything neither win was better than the other.

As Travis said, he should be broke his leg earlier in the year. Isn’t that ridiculous that this is what it came to?

3 P5 conference champs won all their games. 1 of the other 2, 1-loss, P5 conference champs beat the other already. It shouldn’t take a committee.
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#597 CantonJester

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Posted 05 December 2023 - 01:42 PM

One being undefeated and one not when you arent playing the same schedule is a ridiculous argument.

And yes...while I agree FSU should have been dropped further quicker after Travis...they were being evaluated under their 2nd and later 3rd string QBs and did not hold up well in that evaluation.

And yes...Bama was held back, as they had to beat the #1 overall and win the SEC to get in.

 

No, it’s not a ridiculous argument. In fact, it’s plain as day. You denying that reality is insulting.

 

Ari Wasserman nailed it.



#598 CantonJester

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Posted 05 December 2023 - 01:44 PM

Well for two weeks the committee thought they were. That’s the frustrating part. If it supposed to play a role, have FSU on the outside looking in before Saturday. Tell everyone it’s a factor, and they have to prove something

I dont think Texas looked any better than FSU. Unless you look at points scored, which, you’re smarter than that. Louisville scores about 30 a game and FSU held them to 6. OKST scores 29 a game and Texas held to 21. Louisville also the higher ranked team, much better defensively than OKST. 21st in scoring versus 90th. You can continue to ignore that if you want. If anything neither win was better than the other.

As Travis said, he should be broke his leg earlier in the year. Isn’t that ridiculous that this is what it came to?

3 P5 conference champs won all their games. 1 of the other 2, 1-loss, P5 conference champs beat the other already. It shouldn’t take a committee.

 

They didn’t tank FSU until they had to do it. You see, they wanted to retain the appearance of credibility until it was no longer possible to do so. It’s really that simple. 



#599 mweb08

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Posted 05 December 2023 - 03:40 PM

I'm conflicted on this, but I do think that if you're going to punish FSU for losing their QB, then while judging their performance against Louisville, you conversely have to give them additional credit for playing with their 3rd string QB given that the 2nd string QB is slated to return.

In other words, why is their poor offense in that game being cited as such a critical piece of evidence against them when that dude won't be the starter the same way Jordan Travis won't be the starter?

#600 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 05 December 2023 - 05:35 PM

I'm conflicted on this, but I do think that if you're going to punish FSU for losing their QB, then while judging their performance against Louisville, you conversely have to give them additional credit for playing with their 3rd string QB given that the 2nd string QB is slated to return.

In other words, why is their poor offense in that game being cited as such a critical piece of evidence against them when that dude won't be the starter the same way Jordan Travis won't be the starter?


Didn't realize Rodemaker will be back.  That's a fair point. 

 

Still think the bottomline is that Alabama is looked at as a better team than FSU, and when the season ended... had a better overall resume. 






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