341 replies to this topic

[SouthRider]

The reality is he's not an elite passer and never will be.  I think he's a good passer, slightly better than middle of the road who gets very sloppy with mechanics at times.  What he is elite at and revolutionized the sport with is his talent as a runner.  Roman will always give him his designed runs but I wish he would do what he was great at when he burst on to the scene- causing complete chaos and breakdown of defenses when taking off after a pass play didn't work.  Now, he pretty much just takes the sack.  Apparently, everyone on the team is ok with it, including Lamar.  Just hope he doesn't get hurt doing it. 

 

I agree. Steve Young was praising Lamar pre-game, showing some plays from this season where he stood in the pocket and made some great throws.  Sure, there are a handful of those plays this season; but more often than not, Lamar waits, waits, waits, and by the time he runs it is too late.  Last night, he did a good job of mixing those QB throws with some take-offs. Hopefully,  that continues. 

[Mike B]

Is there any rhyme or reason to what Roman does sometimes?  His problem is he has a playbook the size of an Encyclopedia and he gets too cute for his own good.  Way too many times. 

My only criticism of Roman last night was the slowness getting the plays in.  The play calling last night and IMO the Bucs game was dead on.

Criticizing him last night for DD's lack of touches seems unfounded given how the Ravens were running at will.

[jamesdean]

My only criticism of Roman last night was the slowness getting the plays in.  The play calling last night and IMO the Bucs game was dead on.
Criticizing him last night for DD's lack of touches seems unfounded given how the Ravens were running at will.

Just got finished watching the game and jeez, the drive before Houston's interception was really bordering on major CF status with them running plays down to 0 or 1 or 2 seconds. Lamar was ready to go right off the rails. I don't know what the problem was but so amateurish. Other than that and Lamar making some really sloppy throws, there wasn't much not to like about the game. As prescribed, the OL took its toll on the Saints D by the last quarter. Always a thing of beauty to watch.

[JStruds]

Just got finished watching the game and jeez, the drive before Houston's interception was really bordering on major CF status with them running plays down to 0 or 1 or 2 seconds. Lamar was ready to go right off the rails. I don't know what the problem was but so amateurish. Other than that and Lamar making some really sloppy throws, there wasn't much not to like about the game. As prescribed, the OL took its toll on the Saints D by the last quarter. Always a thing of beauty to watch.

The ability of both tackles to pull is great to watch. Moses had a very nice game from what I could see.

Edit. Just read Mirzet's analytic review. PFF agreed with my eye test as Moses graded highest on the team for this game.

[hallas]

He was good early in the season with the blitz but probably not so much since. Maybe I should have been more specific. Pressure is part of it but I just don't think Lamar has that innate ability scan a field and see what's happening in an extremely short amount of time. He's just way too slow in processing the play and takes a ridiculous amount of sacks for someone with his legs. Not acceptable to me but I guess Roman and Harbaugh think differently. Again, most quarterbacks in the league have the same problem. But if you want to be considered an elite passer, you can't have that weakness. The reality is he's not an elite passer and never will be. I think he's a good passer, slightly better than middle of the road who gets very sloppy with mechanics at times. What he is elite at and revolutionized the sport with is his talent as a runner. Roman will always give him his designed runs but I wish he would do what he was great at when he burst on to the scene- causing complete chaos and breakdown of defenses when taking off after a pass play didn't work. Now, he pretty much just takes the sack. Apparently, everyone on the team is ok with it, including Lamar. Just hope he doesn't get hurt doing it.

I think his vision is generally good, but we don't have receivers that are reliably open on time, with everyone out.

Roman lets him sit in the pocket waiting for long developing routes. We don't run nearly as many quick throws as other teams. I think it's because we run the ball so much more and we need plays to stretch the defense in the passing game. But it puts Lamar in a tough spot, especially if the guys aren't open when they're supposed to be.

This year he has been really money on 5-15 yard passes. He didn't look like he had a great game yesterday which I think I'm chalking some of it to not having great chemistry with his receivers. Some of the throws were just a bit off target though.

[jamesdean]

I think his vision is generally good, but we don't have receivers that are reliably open on time, with everyone out.

Roman lets him sit in the pocket waiting for long developing routes. We don't run nearly as many quick throws as other teams. I think it's because we run the ball so much more and we need plays to stretch the defense in the passing game. But it puts Lamar in a tough spot, especially if the guys aren't open when they're supposed to be.

This year he has been really money on 5-15 yard passes. He didn't look like he had a great game yesterday which I think I'm chalking some of it to not having great chemistry with his receivers. Some of the throws were just a bit off target though.

Most of the misses were on him, not the receivers.  You could clearly tell how frustrated he was with his inaccuracy.  I think the main reason he always seems to start the season deadly accurate but fades as it progresses is he reverts back to poor mechanics.  He does a lot of work in the offseason improving his accuracy and after it seems to have paid off, it's back to erratic Lamar.  He just can't sustain what he initially establishes.  And while it's easy to blame receivers for everything, including not getting separation, it just happens too often for it not to be Lamar seeing the field poorly.  I've been advocating Roman just stick to the quick hitters and in the range you mentioned for most of the routes.  Let the guys catching the ball pick up some significant YAC.  It's almost a sin they don't attack the middle of the field with Duvernay the way the Dolphins do with Hill.  

[hallas]

Most of the misses were on him, not the receivers. You could clearly tell how frustrated he was with his inaccuracy. I think the main reason he always seems to start the season deadly accurate but fades as it progresses is he reverts back to poor mechanics. He does a lot of work in the offseason improving his accuracy and after it seems to have paid off, it's back to erratic Lamar. He just can't sustain what he initially establishes. And while it's easy to blame receivers for everything, including not getting separation, it just happens too often for it not to be Lamar seeing the field poorly. I've been advocating Roman just stick to the quick hitters and in the range you mentioned for most of the routes. Let the guys catching the ball pick up some significant YAC. It's almost a sin they don't attack the middle of the field with Duvernay the way the Dolphins do with Hill.

My recollection was that he had 4 misses thay were on him, but like 2 or 3 of them were deep balls. That's probably worse than he's been, but not awful. I did have that one miss over the middle to Demarcus Robinson that hes made like 90% of the time this year, so that was a bit uncharacteristic. I think a couple inaccurate throws were due to getting hit or throwing off balance while evading rushers, so I'm kind of excusing those.

In general his misses are usually on deep balls and while he's improved its still not great. I'd really prefer they set him up for 5-10 yard quick throws a bit more, they are enough to force the defense off the running game and Lamar's accuracy on those has improved to the point where they are almost automatic.

[jamesdean]

My recollection was that only like 2 or 3 misses were inaccuracy with no pressure. That's probably worse than he's been, but not awful. I think a couple inaccurate throws were due to getting hit or throwing off balance while evading rushers, so I'm kind of excusing those.

Well, if he wants to be considered an elite passer, throwing with bodies collapsing around him and still making the completions is unfortunately, a prerequisite.

[hallas]

Well, if he wants to be considered an elite passer, throwing with bodies collapsing around him and still making the completions is unfortunately, a prerequisite.

I really just want them to play to his strengths in the passing game. Why make him sit around waiting for bad receivers to get open when hes been automatic on mid range throws? 5-10 yard throws still do enough to open up room in the running game. Peyton was elite for Denver and he couldn't throw the ball downfield anymore.

[jamesdean]

I really just want them to play to his strengths in the passing game. Why make him sit around waiting for bad receivers to get open when hes been automatic on mid range throws? 5-10 yard throws still do enough to open up room in the running game. Peyton was elite for Denver and he couldn't throw the ball downfield anymore.

I don't disagree with you.  You're spot on with that assessment.  I wish they would just concentrate on intermediate/short passes and let our receivers pile up some YAC.  Get them in space, in the creases, moving while catching the ball.  When was the last time they threw a slant pattern to Duvernay?  Or Likely?  I'm all for a West Coast type passing game and like you said, it plays to Lamar's strengths.  They do way too much standing around on offense in general and take forever to snap a ball.  While that does eat up some accumulative clock, it also never allows them to get into any kind of rhythm. 

[Mackus]

I disagree that West Coast style plays to Lamar's strengths.  Pre-snap reads, 3-step drops, and quick-release throws with precision are not his biggest strengths.  I prefer to let him read defenses after the snap, especially keying on the reaction of a particular defender, and attack with his legs and arm.

[jamesdean]

The problem is, I don't think Lamar reads defenses very well.  Way too much standing around in the pocket and taking sacks.  I don't think he accesses the field in real time with things happening very quickly all that well.  And since he's pretty much put to rest the "take off if the main target is covered", teams don't have to fear him killing them with his legs anymore other than designed plays.  I do think a West Coast approach would be good for him because it would allow him to operate in a rhythm that he normally doesn't have.  We'll never know of course because I seriously doubt Roman would want to go down that road. 

[Mackus]

The problem is, I don't think Lamar reads defenses very well.  Way too much standing around in the pocket and taking sacks.  I don't think he accesses the field in real time with things happening very quickly all that well.  And since he's pretty much put to rest the "take off if the main target is covered", teams don't have to fear him killing them with his legs anymore other than designed plays.  I do think a West Coast approach would be good for him because it would allow him to operate in a rhythm that he normally doesn't have.  We'll never know of course because I seriously doubt Roman would want to go down that road. 

 

I think this is a decision/mindset from Lamar and the team to hunt for big plays and not an inability to read the defense.  Maybe a matter of semantics, but for a West Coast offensive attack you need to read the coverage before the snap and basically know where you're throwing the instant you get the ball.  That's not a strength of Lamar.  Nor is making the very precise throws that are often required for such an offense to work.  If a receiver on a bubble screen has to scoop a low throw or leap for a high one, that throws off the entire timing.  He is, however, very good at reading a single defenders reaction and knowing what to do (the run-option mesh point is entirely predicated on that read).  I think he also does a good job of that deep in the pocket, buying time for a receiver to come open if the play breaks down.

 

I agree that he's remaining in the pocket and looking for a big play more frequently than in '19 when he would scramble more.  I don't think that's because anything about Lamar's skills have changed, rather I think its a group decision that they'd rather hunt for big plays in the passing game than takeoff and take a lesser gain.  I don't necessarily agree with that mindset, but that's what I think is happening.  I don't think Lamar is trying to prove he's a passer now nor do I think he's afraid to scramble.  I think that they all as a group think that this is the best approach.

[jamesdean]

I think this is a decision/mindset from Lamar and the team to hunt for big plays and not an inability to read the defense.  Maybe a matter of semantics, but for a West Coast offensive attack you need to read the coverage before the snap and basically know where you're throwing the instant you get the ball.  That's not a strength of Lamar.  Nor is making the very precise throws that are often required for such an offense to work.  If a receiver on a bubble screen has to scoop a low throw or leap for a high one, that throws off the entire timing.  He is, however, very good at reading a single defenders reaction and knowing what to do (the run-option mesh point is entirely predicated on that read).  I think he also does a good job of that deep in the pocket, buying time for a receiver to come open if the play breaks down.

 

I agree that he's remaining in the pocket and looking for a big play more frequently than in '19 when he would scramble more.  I don't think that's because anything about Lamar's skills have changed, rather I think its a group decision that they'd rather hunt for big plays in the passing game than takeoff and take a lesser gain.  I don't necessarily agree with that mindset, but that's what I think is happening.  I don't think Lamar is trying to prove he's a passer now nor do I think he's afraid to scramble.  I think that they all as a group think that this is the best approach.

Can't agree that's their best option.  Hunting for big plays is what usually gets him in trouble. 

[Mackus]

Can't agree that's their best option.  Hunting for big plays is what usually gets him in trouble. 

 

Not trying to convince you that it is, just saying that Lamar "standing around in the pocket and taking sacks" isn't because he can't read the defense from the pocket.

[jamesdean]

Not trying to convince you that it is, just saying that Lamar "standing around in the pocket and taking sacks" isn't because he can't read the defense from the pocket.

How do you know that?  Not that my assumption is ultimately any more accurate. 

[Mackus]

How do you know that?  Not that my assumption is ultimately any more accurate. 

 

I'm stating my opinion.  There are no facts here.

[jamesdean]

I'm stating my opinion.  There are no facts here.

Fair enough.  

[hallas]

I think this is a decision/mindset from Lamar and the team to hunt for big plays and not an inability to read the defense.  Maybe a matter of semantics, but for a West Coast offensive attack you need to read the coverage before the snap and basically know where you're throwing the instant you get the ball.  That's not a strength of Lamar.  Nor is making the very precise throws that are often required for such an offense to work.  If a receiver on a bubble screen has to scoop a low throw or leap for a high one, that throws off the entire timing.  He is, however, very good at reading a single defenders reaction and knowing what to do (the run-option mesh point is entirely predicated on that read).  I think he also does a good job of that deep in the pocket, buying time for a receiver to come open if the play breaks down.

 

I agree that he's remaining in the pocket and looking for a big play more frequently than in '19 when he would scramble more.  I don't think that's because anything about Lamar's skills have changed, rather I think its a group decision that they'd rather hunt for big plays in the passing game than takeoff and take a lesser gain.  I don't necessarily agree with that mindset, but that's what I think is happening.  I don't think Lamar is trying to prove he's a passer now nor do I think he's afraid to scramble.  I think that they all as a group think that this is the best approach.

 

I think his receivers have something to do with him being terrible on the deep ball.  He's actually worse with them this year than he has been in 2019-2021.  All while throwing more of them.  He looked really promising on them earlier in the year, so it's kind of unfortunate that he's regressed.  With Bateman out I really think they need to reduce how many he throws downfield.  He's on a pace for 71, which is more than any previous year.  He threw 68 in 2019 and was fairly successful on them.

 

Against the Saints they really shouldn't be throwing 5 deep balls out of 22 attempts, with Andrews and Bateman out.

 

In general I think his accuracy issues since last year on passes less than 15 or so yards is overblown.  He's had some bad games with them but he's generally been much more accurate in this range than he was in 2020 and to some extent 2019.  But I don't think we want to run a west coast style offense because how do you incorporate a west coast style offense with the running game we have?

[jamesdean]

I think his receivers have something to do with him being terrible on the deep ball.  He's actually worse with them this year than he has been in 2019-2021.  All while throwing more of them.  He looked really promising on them earlier in the year, so it's kind of unfortunate that he's regressed.  With Bateman out I really think they need to reduce how many he throws downfield.  He's on a pace for 71, which is more than any previous year.  He threw 68 in 2019 and was fairly successful on them.
 
Against the Saints they really shouldn't be throwing 5 deep balls out of 22 attempts, with Andrews and Bateman out.
 
In general I think his accuracy issues since last year on passes less than 15 or so yards is overblown.  He's had some bad games with them but he's generally been much more accurate in this range than he was in 2020 and to some extent 2019.  But I don't think we want to run a west coast style offense because how do you incorporate a west coast style offense with the running game we have?

Its not so much morphing into a West Coast attack as much as integrating aspects of it. I understand they do want to stretch the field occasionally to keep defenses honest but to me, its just a waste of time with Lamar's inaccuracy. Just concentrate on higher percentage passes and keep the chains moving. Its not sexy but that's who the Ravens are.