27 replies to this topic

[Mike in STL]

BSL: https://baltimorespo...th-chart-reset/

 

Where did the Ravens improve, who is in a camp battle, and where there are still holes.

[Biggsy]

BSL: https://baltimorespo...th-chart-reset/

Where did the Ravens improve, who is in a camp battle, and where there are still holes.

Great read. Agree with everything you said.

I think the depth along the defensive line is a lot better than most think. They're older, but they're all still playing at a high level. I imagine the starters will be Campbell, Pierce and Wolfe (if healthy and ready). And they rotate Madubuike, Washington and Mack at DE. And Pierce and Jones will rotate at NT to keep each other fresh. Outside of the age, for this season, that's a deep and talented rotation.

The depth at OLB and ILB is what scares me. I think Hamilton may relieve some of that by playing a hybrid role on obvious passing downs. But Queen hasn't really developed, and after him and Bynes it's scary. At OLB, I imagine we bring Houston back at some point. But until Ojabo is ready, that's a thin position as well. Oweh should dominate the snaps on one side. But with Bowser coming off of a major injury, he should be in a rotation, at least to start the season.

Offensively, I agree with you, as of right now, I see no reason that we need to go outside to sign anyone else on that side. Even at WR. I would say the draft picks, along with the trade of Brown, pretty much signals a return to the 2019 offensive philosophy. I would expect a return of bully-ball this season. With a heavy dose of Dobbins and Edwards. I feel confident in saying Duvernay and Bateman fit what Roman wants a lot better than Brown ever did. Bateman ran a 4.3, and I believe Duvernay did as well. So it's not like losing Brown took away all of our big play ability. We still have a ton of speed on the outside to win downfield. And on top of that, both of them are better YAC WR's than Brown ever will be. I think we will miss Brown at times if I'm being honest. He would go on stretches where he looked like a true alpha #1. Beating everyone deep and making tough catches downfield. But with that came the stretches of Hot Hands Brown where he borderline cost us games, or close to it, because he couldn't catch passes dropped right into his basket.

In the end, I like where the team is at. I think we still have some holes. And we're depending on rookies, or 2nd year players in key spots. So I do believe we have a volatile roster at the moment. If the young guys fail to develop, or play to their potential, we could be in a lot of trouble. But then again, if they all do develop and play up to their potential, this is a team primed to make a deep run in January.

[Mike in STL]

Great read. Agree with everything you said.

I think the depth along the defensive line is a lot better than most think. They're older, but they're all still playing at a high level. I imagine the starters will be Campbell, Pierce and Wolfe (if healthy and ready). And they rotate Madubuike, Washington and Mack at DE. And Pierce and Jones will rotate at NT to keep each other fresh. Outside of the age, for this season, that's a deep and talented rotation.

The depth at OLB and ILB is what scares me. I think Hamilton may relieve some of that by playing a hybrid role on obvious passing downs. But Queen hasn't really developed, and after him and Bynes it's scary. At OLB, I imagine we bring Houston back at some point. But until Ojabo is ready, that's a thin position as well. Oweh should dominate the snaps on one side. But with Bowser coming off of a major injury, he should be in a rotation, at least to start the season.

Offensively, I agree with you, as of right now, I see no reason that we need to go outside to sign anyone else on that side. Even at WR. I would say the draft picks, along with the trade of Brown, pretty much signals a return to the 2019 offensive philosophy. I would expect a return of bully-ball this season. With a heavy dose of Dobbins and Edwards. I feel confident in saying Duvernay and Bateman fit what Roman wants a lot better than Brown ever did. Bateman ran a 4.3, and I believe Duvernay did as well. So it's not like losing Brown took away all of our big play ability. We still have a ton of speed on the outside to win downfield. And on top of that, both of them are better YAC WR's than Brown ever will be. I think we will miss Brown at times if I'm being honest. He would go on stretches where he looked like a true alpha #1. Beating everyone deep and making tough catches downfield. But with that came the stretches of Hot Hands Brown where he borderline cost us games, or close to it, because he couldn't catch passes dropped right into his basket.

In the end, I like where the team is at. I think we still have some holes. And we're depending on rookies, or 2nd year players in key spots. So I do believe we have a volatile roster at the moment. If the young guys fail to develop, or play to their potential, we could be in a lot of trouble. But then again, if they all do develop and play up to their potential, this is a team primed to make a deep run in January.

Agree with this as well.

Feel like it’s hard to fill every hole through the draft. I mean, every team has a hole somewhere, or at least is very thin at a couple positions.

But I do wonder if the drafting two TEs, two CBs, an edge rusher who won’t play in 22’, drafting a punter when how important is that really? You can’t find one in the UDFA market? Why wasn’t Justin Tucker a 4th round pick? I know, not a punter, point remains, those positions don’t need to be drafted, IMO.

Maybe I’m wrong. But is that three or four picks that could have been used to throw darts at edge and ILB guys?

[Mike in STL]

Basically, so many people are giving this draft an A+. I think it’s an A-. Picking nits. That’s all.

[Biggsy]

Basically, so many people are giving this draft an A+. I think it’s an A-. Picking nits. That’s all.

If they would have grabbed Austin instead of a punter, I would disagree wholeheartedly. I feel like long term outlook, the first 4 rounds are an A+. The 4th could have been better though. Maybe this punter is the next Johnny Hekker, and can impact close games in a huge way. But I feel like Austin over Kolar would have been a better pick.

I can understand people questioning a 2nd for a guy that's basically in a redshirt season. But 4 years from now, if he develops and lives up to his potential, people won't care about a lost 2023.

[hallas]

Hamilton could be on the ILB list too. He might be a better linebacker than Queen is. Queen's already an undersized LB so it's not like we are giving up size with a 6'4" 220 lb dude.

[makoman]

I don't mind taking a punter. If there's one thing to trust the Ravens on it's special teams, and I'm pretty sure they said they thought Stout was the best punter that came out in the past several years.

By the time you're in the 4th round it's kind of a crap shoot. I saw an old article saying the bust rate (PFR career AV < 5) at pick 128 is 60%. I saw another old article saying success rate of 4th round receivers was under 15%. But I would wager that Stout's chance of success is quite high. Punting must be the skill that most easily translates from college to NFL, so if you are a really great college punter why wouldn't you be good in the pros? Especially on a team that values special teams.

I can understand not liking it though. It's hard to quantify a punter's value. Like Mike said, why not just bring in some UDFA? But what if Stout improves the defense's field position by say 5-10 yards per punt over a replacement punter? That seems really valuable, but I'm not sure how much. I bet the analytics guys know how much though.

It just seemed like a perfect storm. Best punter in years. Current punter is 40 and starting to show it, and is cuttable cap wise. You're getting into the end of your draftable players board where chance of success is low anyway. And it's not like it was their 3rd or 4th pick, it was their 8th selection.

Of course, maybe the Steelers will make Calvin Austin a pro bowler and then I'll look dumb. But as of today I think it's fine. He's not some can't miss prospect, he was like the 20th receiver taken and makes Hollywood look like a giant.

And I enjoyed the article btw.

[Biggsy]

I don't mind taking a punter. If there's one thing to trust the Ravens on it's special teams, and I'm pretty sure they said they thought Stout was the best punter that came out in the past several years.

By the time you're in the 4th round it's kind of a crap shoot. I saw an old article saying the bust rate (PFR career AV < 5) at pick 128 is 60%. I saw another old article saying success rate of 4th round receivers was under 15%. But I would wager that Stout's chance of success is quite high. Punting must be the skill that most easily translates from college to NFL, so if you are a really great college punter why wouldn't you be good in the pros? Especially on a team that values special teams.

I can understand not liking it though. It's hard to quantify a punter's value. Like Mike said, why not just bring in some UDFA? But what if Stout improves the defense's field position by say 5-10 yards per punt over a replacement punter? That seems really valuable, but I'm not sure how much. I bet the analytics guys know how much though.

It just seemed like a perfect storm. Best punter in years. Current punter is 40 and starting to show it, and is cuttable cap wise. You're getting into the end of your draftable players board where chance of success is low anyway. And it's not like it was their 3rd or 4th pick, it was their 8th selection.

Of course, maybe the Steelers will make Calvin Austin a pro bowler and then I'll look dumb. But as of today I think it's fine. He's not some can't miss prospect, he was like the 20th receiver taken and makes Hollywood look like a giant.

And I enjoyed the article btw.

All valid points. And I think the chances of Stout being a multiple time pro-bowler over Austin is extremely likely.


Like I said, Brown had elite speed. But we still have world class speed in Bateman and Duvernay, who both ran 4.3's.

I just would have preferred the WR over the TE. Although, I like what I've seen with Likely.

[makoman]

All valid points. And I think the chances of Stout being a multiple time pro-bowler over Austin is extremely likely.


Like I said, Brown had elite speed. But we still have world class speed in Bateman and Duvernay, who both ran 4.3's.

I just would have preferred the WR over the TE. Although, I like what I've seen with Likely.

That’s fair. For the foreseeable future this team isn’t going to attract big time FA receivers so they should try to draft one most years, though they’ve drafted quite a few lately. I’ve gotten the feeling that they really like Wallace but we’ll see. I agree that losing Brown’s speed shouldn’t be an issue as they still have plenty of it.

It sounded like Kolar was one of their targets so they must have liked him a lot. Likely is interesting, seems like he knows how to use his size and could be a red zone threat. They’ll probably use multiple TEs a ton, get defenses focused on run defense and then pass to these TEs.

[hallas]

All valid points. And I think the chances of Stout being a multiple time pro-bowler over Austin is extremely likely.


Like I said, Brown had elite speed. But we still have world class speed in Bateman and Duvernay, who both ran 4.3's.

I just would have preferred the WR over the TE. Although, I like what I've seen with Likely.

Bateman ran his 4.39 at his pro day, but pro days have been a few ticks faster than combine numbers.  He's basically a low-4.4 guy.

 

Of course I think deep threat isn't all that relevant in the Ravens passing game.  Lamar is only okay at the deep ball.  We need guys that can make catches in traffic.  Hollywood isn't that guy.  Hollywood thrived early because Lamar seemed to make improvements on deep balls, and because he was targeted pretty heavily on 8-15 yard routes which he can do well in.  Later in the year when we used him a lot on short quick slants and WR screens he suffered.

[Mike in STL]

I don't mind taking a punter. If there's one thing to trust the Ravens on it's special teams, and I'm pretty sure they said they thought Stout was the best punter that came out in the past several years.

By the time you're in the 4th round it's kind of a crap shoot. I saw an old article saying the bust rate (PFR career AV < 5) at pick 128 is 60%. I saw another old article saying success rate of 4th round receivers was under 15%. But I would wager that Stout's chance of success is quite high. Punting must be the skill that most easily translates from college to NFL, so if you are a really great college punter why wouldn't you be good in the pros? Especially on a team that values special teams.

I can understand not liking it though. It's hard to quantify a punter's value. Like Mike said, why not just bring in some UDFA? But what if Stout improves the defense's field position by say 5-10 yards per punt over a replacement punter? That seems really valuable, but I'm not sure how much. I bet the analytics guys know how much though.

It just seemed like a perfect storm. Best punter in years. Current punter is 40 and starting to show it, and is cuttable cap wise. You're getting into the end of your draftable players board where chance of success is low anyway. And it's not like it was their 3rd or 4th pick, it was their 8th selection.

Of course, maybe the Steelers will make Calvin Austin a pro bowler and then I'll look dumb. But as of today I think it's fine. He's not some can't miss prospect, he was like the 20th receiver taken and makes Hollywood look like a giant.

And I enjoyed the article btw.

Great points. Thanks man.

[Biggsy]

Bateman ran his 4.39 at his pro day, but pro days have been a few ticks faster than combine numbers. He's basically a low-4.4 guy.

Of course I think deep threat isn't all that relevant in the Ravens passing game. Lamar is only okay at the deep ball. We need guys that can make catches in traffic. Hollywood isn't that guy. Hollywood thrived early because Lamar seemed to make improvements on deep balls, and because he was targeted pretty heavily on 8-15 yard routes which he can do well in. Later in the year when we used him a lot on short quick slants and WR screens he suffered.

The fear of getting beat over the top is what keeps defenses from stacking a box. But I think defenses are going to make a huge mistake if they think Bateman and Duvernay can't beat them deep like Brown did. So I'm cool with it.

And a low 4.4 guys is still world class speed. Torrey Smith I believe only ran a 4.45. He had no problem making a career out of beating people deep.

[hallas]

The fear of getting beat over the top is what keeps defenses from stacking a box. But I think defenses are going to make a huge mistake if they think Bateman and Duvernay can't beat them deep like Brown did. So I'm cool with it.

And a low 4.4 guys is still world class speed. Torrey Smith I believe only ran a 4.45. He had no problem making a career out of beating people deep.

Torrey ran a 4.41, faster than Batemans time, and was quite a bit better in every other event he ran at the combine.

I think that from a WR perspective you need to be in the mid 4.3s for me to classify you as having world class speed. But that's just me. Bateman just doesn't strike me as someone that is capable of blowing the top off the defense. But that's okay. Lamar isn't really a great deep ball QB.


IMO you just need to be a threat to catch the ball to dissuade people from stacking the box. You don't necessarily have to have 40 yard catch and run type of speed. Just run your route and you'll be behind the defense anyway as long as you don't get jammed out of your route.

[Biggsy]

Torrey ran a 4.41, faster than Batemans time, and was quite a bit better in every other event he ran at the combine.

I think that from a WR perspective you need to be in the mid 4.3s for me to classify you as having world class speed. But that's just me. Bateman just doesn't strike me as someone that is capable of blowing the top off the defense. But that's okay. Lamar isn't really a great deep ball QB.


IMO you just need to be a threat to catch the ball to dissuade people from stacking the box. You don't necessarily have to have 40 yard catch and run type of speed. Just run your route and you'll be behind the defense anyway as long as you don't get jammed out of your route.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your thoughts on speed and whether or not Torrey was faster.

I do disagree with your thoughts on Bateman taking a top off. He might not do it like Hollywood. But he can get open deep as good as anyone. His sophomore year he averaged 20 YPC. Don't get me wrong, his strength is in the short and intermediate areas, and YAC plays. But he can also beat you deep.

My overall point being, if teams think no Hollywood means they don't have to worry about the deep ball. They're going to be in for a surprise when Bateman and Duvernay work their way open downfield.

[jamesdean]

Long range passes are a low percentage throw for the most part and Lamar is hardly deadly with his accuracy in that department. So, I'm not convinced its of vital importance to have a speed guy running down the feld. YAC is more important for me and Hollywood almost always went down on first contact. Utilize Bateman and Duvernay properly and I think you'll find the overall yardage and damage will be more than sufficient.

[hallas]

While I don't necessarily disagree with your thoughts on speed and whether or not Torrey was faster.

I do disagree with your thoughts on Bateman taking a top off. He might not do it like Hollywood. But he can get open deep as good as anyone. His sophomore year he averaged 20 YPC. Don't get me wrong, his strength is in the short and intermediate areas, and YAC plays. But he can also beat you deep.

My overall point being, if teams think no Hollywood means they don't have to worry about the deep ball. They're going to be in for a surprise when Bateman and Duvernay work their way open downfield.

Ok I think we're arguing semantics now - when I say that Bateman doesn't strike me as someone that will beat you deep, I mean that isn't really his forte, not that he will never beat you deep. Any NFL WR can beat you deep from time to time, but for someone like Hollywood it's their primary area of strength. Cooper Kupp had 26 deep targets last year. No one is about to call him a deep threat.

[Biggsy]

Long range passes are a low percentage throw for the most part and Lamar is hardly deadly with his accuracy in that department. So, I'm not convinced its of vital importance to have a speed guy running down the feld. YAC is more important for me and Hollywood almost always went down on first contact. Utilize Bateman and Duvernay properly and I think you'll find the overall yardage and damage will be more than sufficient.

It's not that I disagree. But if you're goal is to pull safetys away from the LOS, throwing short passes relying on YAC isn't going to do that.

[jamesdean]

It's not that I disagree. But if you're goal is to pull safetys away from the LOS, throwing short passes relying on YAC isn't going to do that.

I was talking more in the intermediate range, not solely short passes. 20 yards down the seam may not be a long pass by definition but if Bateman or Duvernay take it to the house or even get 40-50 yards out of it, I consider that extremely productive and will definitely loosen up coverages.

[makoman]

Maybe I’m just not remembering but I don’t recall Duvernay even going deep very much. Feel like they didn’t trust him with many routes. Hope that changes. Bateman definitely has.

I agree the threat of going deep is important. Defenses might make them prove it first but both of these guys should be capable.

[Steve55]

Teams are releasing some players or looking to trade some with having picked their replacements. We don't have the cap money to go up against teams with $20 mil in space. The Giants were looking to move Toney and now may keep him. Now they may make Slayton available. Fuller & his injury issues is also still out there.