5723 replies to this topic

[PrimeTime]

I would assume it's just like always. The new team would be on the hook for base salaries for time played with the new team, the old team would have dead money for pro-rated bonuses that haven't hit the cap yet. I suppose they could have different rules if they wanted though.

 

Thanks. The salary cap can be dizzying at times.

 

So fretting over a fully guaranteed deal isn't really the issue but rather how the money would be paid (salary vs bonuses).

[BaltBird 24]

Book it.

That'll be Nashville's problem.

[bmore_ken]

I would assume it's just like always. The new team would be on the hook for base salaries for time played with the new team, the old team would have dead money for pro-rated bonuses that haven't hit the cap yet. I suppose they could have different rules if they wanted though.

Are there bonuses with a fully guaranteed contract? Isn't it all salary?

[bmore_ken]

That'll be Nashville's problem.

Heh heh. I don't think they're going anywhere for real.

[mdrunning]

Yes.

 

The player still likely approves since payment up front is better than amortized.  And if the player doesn't approve, in many cases the team still do the restructure without the player's approval.  

Again, fully guaranteed is more like a baseball or NBA contract in that there are no void years or anything to soften the cap blow by deferring commitments. A team cannot unilaterally tack on void years in order to spread those payments out. Adding de facto years to a contract drops the AAV considerably. I'm not aware of how guarantee language in NFL contracts is worded, but I imagine it stipulates that the money is to be paid in prescribed installments over the agreed-upon number of years. Nothing more. A five-year deal is just that, a five-year deal. 

 

In the case of DeShaun Watson, the only reason he agreed to a bonus in year one was to mitigate the possible losses of a pending suspension. As it were, such a move saved him some $28 million. However, he is still set to become an UFA after 2026 and will carry a whopping $54 million cap number for the remainder of the contract. By converting his year one salary to a bonus, the Browns were able to lower his cap hit for 2022 only. 

[PrimeTime]

Are there bonuses with a fully guaranteed contract? Isn't it all salary?

 

Looking at Watson's deal, it's 185M in salary and about 45M in bonuses. 

[makoman]

Are there bonuses with a fully guaranteed contract? Isn't it all salary?

Sure, Watson got a 45M signing bonus.

[mdrunning]

Are there bonuses with a fully guaranteed contract? Isn't it all salary?

That's my contention. A fully-guaranteed NFL contract is no different than an MLB or NBA contract. It's all salary and there are no add-on types of years that are typically used to defer cap commitments. The only reason DeShaun Watson received any type of bonus from Cleveland was to protect his pay against a pending suspension.

[mdrunning]

Looking at Watson's deal, it's 185M in salary and about 45M in bonuses. 

To protect him against a suspension. His base salary for 2022 was just $1.035 million, which wound up costing him just over $600K over his 11-game suspension. Had that been docked from his $46 million base salary, he'd have lost some $28 million.

[hallas]

The biggest drawback for a team in giving a fully guaranteed deal is that they're tied to player, for better or worse, as there is no cap savings if they need to move on from the player during the course of the contract. 

 

What I'm not sure of are the ramifications if the player gets traded during the contract. I don't know what cost the team has to absorb when moving the player.

 

IIRC what happened with Roquan was that they converted his current year salary to an option bonus, which became dead money for the Bears when he was traded.

 

Roster bonuses and base salaries travel with the player on trade.

[hallas]

That's my contention. A fully-guaranteed NFL contract is no different than an MLB or NBA contract. It's all salary and there are no add-on types of years that are typically used to defer cap commitments. The only reason DeShaun Watson received any type of bonus from Cleveland was to protect his pay against a pending suspension.

 

A fully guaranteed NFL contract can include void years, which allow you to defer cap hits after the expiration of the deal.  If Lamar signed a 5 year deal with a 6th void year, then when the void year actually becomes void the team takes the dead cap hit for the balance of the signing/option bonus money.

[mdrunning]

A fully guaranteed NFL contract can include void years, which allow you to defer cap hits after the expiration of the deal.  If Lamar signed a 5 year deal with a 6th void year, then when the void year actually becomes void the team takes the dead cap hit for the balance of the signing/option bonus money.

Again, look at DeShaun Watson's contract. There are no voidable years whatsoever. As I said, he can become an UFA at the end of the five-year term. The only way he could have been under team control for an additional year was if he had been suspended for all of 2022. That would have pushed the entire contract back an entire year, but the payments would have continued.

[bmore_ken]

Looking at Watson's deal, it's 185M in salary and about 45M in bonuses. 

 

 

Sure, Watson got a 45M signing bonus.

Ok thanks, I truly didn't know that. 

[hallas]

Again, look at DeShaun Watson's contract. There are no voidable years whatsoever. As I said, he can become an UFA at the end of the five-year term. The only way he could have been under team control for an additional year was if he had been suspended for all of 2022. That would have pushed the entire contract back an entire year, but the payments would have continued.

 

I mean, just because his contract doesn't include them doesn't mean they can't exist.  The Bucs deferred 35 million of Tom Brady's salary for 2022 with 3 void years.

[Mackus]

That's my contention. A fully-guaranteed NFL contract is no different than an MLB or NBA contract. It's all salary and there are no add-on types of years that are typically used to defer cap commitments. The only reason DeShaun Watson received any type of bonus from Cleveland was to protect his pay against a pending suspension.

There can still be signing bonuses and roster bonuses in a fully guaranteed model. Just depends on how it's structured.

But it being all salary actually makes it easier to restructure in any given season, not less. For example if Lamar signs a 5 year deal...after Year 2, you could convert his $40M 2025 salary to $10M salary and $30M bonus prorated across the remaining 3 years and the cap hit goes down from $40M to $20M (with the extra $10M held until the 2026 and 2027 caps).

[makoman]

Thanks. The salary cap can be dizzying at times.

 

So fretting over a fully guaranteed deal isn't really the issue but rather how the money would be paid (salary vs bonuses).

There's also the wrinkle, that I don't really know the details of, that the owner apparently has to put all guaranteed money in escrow up front. That's one of those things that makes no difference to us, but is probably a big deal to Bisciotti. Who wants to give up $250M in cash today? 

[makoman]

That's my contention. A fully-guaranteed NFL contract is no different than an MLB or NBA contract. It's all salary and there are no add-on types of years that are typically used to defer cap commitments. The only reason DeShaun Watson received any type of bonus from Cleveland was to protect his pay against a pending suspension.

Are you saying Lamar won't get a signing bonus if he signs a fully guaranteed contract? Why wouldn't he? I strongly disagree that would happen. He gets more money year 1, the team gets to spread it over 5 years of cap.

[PrimeTime]

There's also the wrinkle, that I don't really know the details of, that the owner apparently has to put all guaranteed money in escrow up front. That's one of those things that makes no difference to us, but is probably a big deal to Bisciotti. Who wants to give up $250M in cash today? 

 

Mr Bisciotti could probably find that money in his couch cushions. LOL

 

All kidding aside, I can appreciate that position. There's also the overall ramifications for the other 31 owners who have all been holding the line as much as possible on fully guaranteed deals and don't want those type of deals to become mainstream. Lastly, there is the variable of player performance over the life of the deal and how much dead money the team would be willing to eat if they have to move on from the player. 

 

As an example, looking at Watson's contract, if the Browns had to get rid of Watson for any reason, the cap implications would cripple them.

[CantonJester]

Bisciotti is not going to be the second owner dumb enough to give a player a 100% guaranteed contract. Unless Lamar backs off his demands (if in fact he is demanding a fully guaranteed contract), his days in Baltimore are most certainly numbered. 

 

In other words, Bisciotti is not going to lose this staring contest (if indeed that's what this is). 

[Mackus]

Fully guaranteed deals are only any different than non-guaranteed if you're going to release the guy.  Having that flexibility after one or two years is huge for the team for most players, but for QBs where even the salary that wasn't guaranteed at signing becomes guaranteed 18 months ahead of time, its a lot less of a factor.  Everyone else, you release the guy and you don't have to pay them.  QB deals you release the guy and you still gotta pay them for the coming season in most cases on the big deals we've seen recently.  The difference is you take on about one APY worth of risk, give or take depending on the structure, for a fully guaranteed deal compared to a typical QB contract where the 2024 salary would become guaranteed this March a few days into when the 2023 league year begins.

 

The Browns can release Watson, they'd just have to pay him everything left on the deal.  So if they release him now, they're basically paying him for 4 seasons they didn't get.  If they release him after 2023, they eat 3 years...after 2025, they eat 1 year.

 

The Cardinals guaranteed a bit more than two years APY worth of Murray's deal at signing, and then each year we move forward another year out becomes guaranteed.  They can release him now and only have to eat 3 years of money (compared to 4 for Watson).  If they wait and release him after next year, they eat the equivalent of 2 years of money (compared to 3 for Watson).

 

So its like 20% riskier, if we're looking at 5-year contracts which seems to be the norm.  Its not as big of a difference as $235M guaranteed at signing vs $103M guaranteed at signing would indicate.