5723 replies to this topic

[cprenegade]

From what I've seen Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, and Herbert all read defenses better and quicker than Lamar Jackson.  They also go through their progressions quicker.  It appears they use their receivers better, but then maybe that's because the Raven's have given Lamar mostly crap to throw to at that position.  They are also consistently more accurate than Lamar throwing downfield.  

 

Lamar Jackson's x-factor is obviously is his running ability.  He is like a Gale Sayers at QB.  The big plays the Ravens hit on are often plays he makes with his legs.  

 

It depends what type of offense you want to run.  If the Ravens intend to stick with the RPO offense that was custom designed to maximize Lamar's strengths and minimize his weaknesses, then he is your best fit.  If you intend to move to more of a pro set offense with more pocket passing, then it remains to be seen how well he will fit in.    

 

Somebody is going to pay Lamar, and that contract is going to be overpayment based on passing abilities alone.  It will be market price, or maybe undervalued, based on his talents making plays with his legs that brings more to the table than any of his peers.  They just better hope that his style of play isn't catching up with him as far as injuries go.  

[bmore_ken]

From what I recall neither of his injuries happened running, so I don't know about injuries catching up with him.

[bmore_ken]

I trust the Ravens to do the right thing. They get it right at a much higher clip then when they get it wrong.

I am loving the argument about just throwing his 2019 season out. It means nothing. But if he had a terrible season in 2019, those same people would be using that season against him right now.

Truth

[Slidemaster]

I actually don't think a bad season in 2019 would have been on anyone's mind considering how long ago it was. It wouldn't change the current issues I have with an extension, which are his availability and his trouble showing up in the postseason. To me, 2019 is such a distant memory that I barely associate it with the same guy we are currently watch play. 3 seasons have elapsed in that time that show who Lamar is, for better and for worse.

[bmore_ken]

I actually don't think a bad season in 2019 would have been on anyone's mind considering how long ago it was. It wouldn't change the current issues I have with an extension, which are his availability and his trouble showing up in the postseason. To me, 2019 is such a distant memory that I barely associate it with the same guy we are currently watch play. 3 seasons have elapsed in that time that show who Lamar is, for better and for worse.

I think you're wrong. Lamar's detractors would have never shut about a bad 2019. 

[Slidemaster]

I think you're wrong. Lamar's detractors would have never shut about a bad 2019.

Even after a good 2020, and some (inconsistently) good play in 2021 and 2022?

I'm a fairly harsh Lamar critic, and it has nothing to do with anything that happened prior to the 2021 season for the most part, other than his poor playoff perfmances. This wouldn't be different even if his 2019 was mediocre.

[CantonJester]

I think you're wrong. Lamar's detractors would have never shut about a bad 2019. 

 

Seriously though, why would you even want him if he had "a bad 2019?" Without that season, Lamar Jackson meets the very definition of fools gold. 

[Mike in STL]

Now do Lamar.

83.0, 67.3, 56.8, 59.0

83 is clearly an outlier.

Does he show up for big games? At this point he quite literally, physically doesn’t show up, to like 1/3 of the games. Meanwhile Mahomes will play on a 4-6 week injury, Allen had to change how he threw the ball to make it through the season with an elbow injury. Aaron Rodgers played through a broken thumb on his throwing hand.

Lamar’s like “I can’t be 100% so I’m gonna chill. Good luck with Huntley. Take care of me though.”

[makoman]

83 is clearly an outlier.

Does he show up for big games? At this point he quite literally, physically doesn’t show up, to like 1/3 of the games. Meanwhile Mahomes will play on a 4-6 week injury, Allen had to change how he threw the ball to make it through the season with an elbow injury. Aaron Rodgers played through a broken thumb on his throwing hand.

Lamar’s like “I can’t be 100% so I’m gonna chill. Good luck with Huntley. Take care of me though.”

Fortunately, if your take is actually right, the team knows this and will absolutely trade him (or let him go for 2 firsts). There's no way they give him $250M if he really did quit on them. They have the MRIs, they saw him every day, they know. So if they sign him I'm not concerned about the attitude. The durability is still concerning.

[Slidemaster]

83 is clearly an outlier.

Does he show up for big games? At this point he quite literally, physically doesn’t show up, to like 1/3 of the games. Meanwhile Mahomes will play on a 4-6 week injury, Allen had to change how he threw the ball to make it through the season with an elbow injury. Aaron Rodgers played through a broken thumb on his throwing hand.

Lamar’s like “I can’t be 100% so I’m gonna chill. Good luck with Huntley. Take care of me though.”

Again, I was more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was too hurt to play, but that instagram post before the ink had even cooled on the box score of their playoff loss was a terrible decision.

I will say also though that Allen, Mahomes, and Rodgers all have deals. I understand the reticence to risk further injury in Lamar's circumstances because if he destroys that knee without a contract, he's costing himself potentially over 100 million dollars.

[Mike in STL]

Seriously though, why would you even want him if he had "a bad 2019?" Without that season, Lamar Jackson meets the very definition of fools gold.

Exactly. If he had a bad 2019 he wouldn’t be in the conversation with the top guys, period. He maybe is extended at a modest rate already and this isn’t even a conversation. 2019 is such and outlier and so far away now that it’s the only data point the Lamar lovers (which I used to be) can point to as thinking he in irreplaceable.

Fine. I’ll count 2019 in my assessment. And say that he has trended downward for the last three seasons since. You want to give top dollar to a guy trending downward for three seasons? You’re an idiot if you do.

[Mike in STL]

Again, I was more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was too hurt to play, but that instagram post before the ink had even cooled on the box score of their playoff loss was a terrible decision.

I will say also though that Allen, Mahomes, and Rodgers all have deals. I understand the reticence to risk further injury in Lamar's circumstances because if he destroys that knee without a contract, he's costing himself potentially over 100 million dollars.

It’s 100% his fault he doesn’t have a deal. He closed the door on negotiations. Not the team. That’s not an excuse to me. Maybe if he was open to negotiation through the season and the Ravens were not entertaining him, sure. But he closed the door. He held the sign saying “pay the man” when he already told the team he isn’t negotiating. He’s a f***ing moron.

[Slidemaster]

It’s 100% his fault he doesn’t have a deal. He closed the door on negotiations. Not the team. That’s not an excuse to me. Maybe if he was open to negotiation through the season and the Ravens were not entertaining him, sure. But he closed the door. He held the sign saying “pay the man” when he already told the team he isn’t negotiating. He’s a f***ing moron.

He certainly hasn't done much to inspire confidence in that department. He's plenty smart as a football player, but he has remarkably poor judgement.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Fortunately, if your take is actually right, the team knows this and will absolutely trade him (or let him go for 2 firsts). There's no way they give him $250M if he really did quit on them. They have the MRIs, they saw him every day, they know. So if they sign him I'm not concerned about the attitude. The durability is still concerning.

The durability is the concern. Period. I really just dont get the talk of regression. At least to the point that it matters or will matter over the next 3 or 4 years. And of course the Ravens will know if Lamar is acting up behind closed doors or overselling his injury. 100% agree that if thats the case they will move on and get significant compensation. That should be the least of anyones concern.

[Ravens2006]

83 is clearly an outlier.

Does he show up for big games? At this point he quite literally, physically doesn’t show up, to like 1/3 of the games. Meanwhile Mahomes will play on a 4-6 week injury, Allen had to change how he threw the ball to make it through the season with an elbow injury. Aaron Rodgers played through a broken thumb on his throwing hand.

Lamar’s like “I can’t be 100% so I’m gonna chill. Good luck with Huntley. Take care of me though.”

 

Rodgers supposedly broke his thumb during the Giants game.  He played through it, and it was much better (according to him) by early December.  What did the Packers happen to do as a team during that stretch?  They went 1-7.  They fared better around the bye, and then we saw him look like a frazzled rookie with some of his throws / decisions in the final game of the year, where DET knocked them out of the playoffs.

 

Nobody really knows what Lamar could have done the last 5 or 6 weeks.  Lots of guessing based largely on Harbs' endless vague addressing of the issue, which inevitably leads us to start questioning EVERY Ravens player who misses time (it's happened over and over in recent years, hell, I was starting to believe Stanley was soft and just didn't care, then I had an epiphany). 

 

But if he played the last 4 games or whatever, and they're 1-3 or 0-4... is anybody saying "Yeah, I know he was bad the last 4 weeks, but MAN he toughed it out on a bad knee, give him the big 5 year deal!"  I kind of doubt it.

 

Just so much assumption going on that he was somehow mailing it in, and folks don't really have any idea of what's true.

[PrimeTime]

From what I recall neither of his injuries happened running, so I don't know about injuries catching up with him.

 

I had mentioned this in another thread or earlier in this thread but it bears repeating.....while Lamar did get hurt in the pocket/dropping back, you can't discount cumulative impact of his playing style. He has 727 carries in his pro career through his 4ish seasons at the helm. So in addition to taking  sacks and "normal" things that happen to a more "traditional" QB, Lamar also has the workload of a number 2/3 running back on his body as well. Even if he does his best to avoid direct contact as much as possible, he's still working his tail off to gain yardage. That could also explain why these past 2 lower body injuries have lingered.....or perhaps Jackson is a slow healer?

[makoman]

A mish mash of thoughts.

 

This year was better than last year so he's not really trending down, though obviously 2019-20 were better. This was pretty clearly his 3rd best year.

 

If people want to cite QBR then this current trending downward year, which was his 3rd best, was better than Burrow's best. 

 

If people want to cite passer rating, his 5 years are 113.3, 99.3, 91.1, 87.0, 84.5. Compares pretty well with Allen's 107.2, 96.6, 92.2, 85.3, 67.9. 

 

​If people want to throw out good years, throw out Allen's 2020 and tell me how inaccurate his completion % looks. Or recognize that even outlier years indicate ceiling, which is part of the analysis you need to do.

 

Herbert probably has more arm talent than any of them. He's still 25-24. It's a team game obviously, but the league has decided the QB gets paid as the most important person on the team so that matters at least a little bit. If it doesn't matter then don't pay a QB 15%+ of the cap, that's fine.

 

​Lamar's durability is a question, I definitely agree with that. I don't agree that anyone outside the castle can have any reasonable opinion about whether he should have played. I still think the team will know best there as to how concerning it is.

 

Playoff performance isn't great. He still has as more wins than Brees and Peyton had at the same age, combined.

 

Mahomes is in a class of his own. He has a 77.7+ QBR in 4 of 6 years, 105 rating 4 of 6 years, is 64-16, 5 AFCCGs. There's no use even mentioning him in any of these discussions, everyone else that's been mentioned is flawed in some way and is fighting to be in that second group, including Lamar.

 

I don't think I'm an idiot for thinking he can still be special. Even if 2019 is out of reach 2020 was a damn good year, it seemed off because of 2019. I've said it seems like a coin flip that you'll hit in the draft, maybe it's also a coin flip that he'd also be worth whatever he gets, so I don't think people are idiots for wanting to move on. 

 

I can't wait till he's signed or traded. This is all getting old.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Count me as one that fully believes Jackson is capable of another MVP season, and I expect him to make multiple Pro Bowls and All-Pro lists going forward...  I'd still prefer him to be traded. 

[Mike in STL]

But if he played the last 4 games or whatever, and they're 1-3 or 0-4... is anybody saying "Yeah, I know he was bad the last 4 weeks, but MAN he toughed it out on a bad knee, give him the big 5 year deal!"  I kind of doubt it.

 

Just so much assumption going on that he was somehow mailing it in, and folks don't really have any idea of what's true.

I would be a lot more reasonable if he just suited up for the Cincy playoff game. I don't care much about missing regular season games to get right. Especially in the position they were in where a spot was pretty much locked up.  If he toughed it out for one game, and even if he failed...If he was hobbling around like 2nd half Mahomes last week and the team still lost in Cincy, I'd be fine.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I would be a lot more reasonable if he just suited up for the Cincy playoff game. I don't care much about missing regular season games to get right. Especially in the position they were in where a spot was pretty much locked up.  If he toughed it out for one game, and even if he failed...If he was hobbling around like 2nd half Mahomes last week and the team still lost in Cincy, I'd be fine.

 

Jackson didn't feel secure structurally.  No problem imo with him not playing. 
The point you made that I think is valid is that he shut down negotiating after the season began.  
Had negotiations continued, and had a deal been reached during the year... maybe he might have been more comfortable with trying to gut it out.