53 replies to this topic

[You Play to Win the Game]

They're 131-252 for a .342% win% and everyone's all, it's okay, they'll win one day. And they will. I want a coherent argument why this was required to get there?

[Mackus]

Honestly, possibly not even 20 as our ceiling. Im not sure what the #20 teams payroll is this year. We may be closer to 23 or 24 on a reg basis with an occasional 20 depending on the year.

 

They were between 15th and 20th most of the decade prior to the rebuild.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Btw I understand Elias works for the Angelos family. Dont mistake being ok with Elias's rebuild for being ok with ownership being a shitshow. I dont expect this ownership to do what is necessary when we do have enough internal talent to compete and when they dont Ill be as pissed as anyone.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

They're 131-252 for a .342% win% and everyone's all, it's okay, they'll win one day. And they will. I want a coherent argument why this was required to get there?

And people will be just as apathetic and angry if it was .420.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

They were between 15th and 20th most of the decade prior to the rebuild.

Possible but I think theyve gone full on small market

[You Play to Win the Game]

And people will be just as apathetic and angry if it was .420.

I disagree, .420 is a great number, if you're going to lose. A perfect number. 

 

But in all seriousness, no they wouldn't. I wouldn't. I'd be a lot more understanding. I could at least watch that team. This team is unwatchable. It's the most pathetic thing I've ever witnessed in sport over a 3 year period. I'm not kidding. But the farm is #1/#2 so it's okay.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I disagree, .420 is a great number, if you're going to lose. A perfect number.

But in all seriousness, no they wouldn't. I wouldn't. I'd be a lot more understanding. I could at least watch that team. This team is unwatchable. It's the most pathetic thing I've ever witnessed in sport over a 3 year period. I'm not kidding. But the farm is #1/#2 so it's okay.

Yeah and next year even with minimal additions they have a real shot at .420ish. So there you go.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Yeah and next year even with minimal additions they have a real shot at .420ish. So there you go.

Because after this crap they should try more. Add more. Try and win some games. There's no excuse not to. A .420 won't do much to the cumulative total. That's crap.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Yeah and next year even with minimal additions they have a real shot at .420ish. So there you go.

But it wont matter. Some wont accept .420 and those that want to be cricitcal to be critical will say, if you just had dudeGM we might have been an 80 win team and had a shot to overshoot, win 87, and hope that gets the 2nd WC.

[You Play to Win the Game]

But it wont matter. Some wont accept .420 and those that want to be cricitcal to be critical will say, if you just had dudeGM we might have been an 80 win team and had a shot to overshoot, win 87, and hope that gets the 2nd WC.

It isn't about the wild card. It's about having enough sense and character to not tell fans that they're not going to do shit again this off-season, after another 100+ losses. Where's the urgency? There's none, he has shown zero empathy or emotional intelligence when it comes to what the fans have gone through.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Im under the assumptuon Elias knows where ownership wants the payroll to fall. If we werent acting like an extreme small market team would he have added more talent at the big league level in recent years? Maybe not, maybe he was full on tank to get highest pick possible. Now, after 3 years and with more talent internally, I absolutely believe if he could truly have a mid market payroll he would spend this offseason. Not go crazy, but shwred team friendly upside deals. If it doesnt happen thats on ownership

[jamesdean]

I do think next year will be a pivotal year in one respect- the top pitching prospects will definitely be in Baltimore at some point if not right out of spring training.  Will they be clueless at the major league level like the other ones?  I think fans will find out next year.  I have no reason to believe anything will be different so unless Elias, under free rein of ownership, gives him the ok to go after decent free agents, 2022 will be another 100 loss season.  Even with Mountcastle, Hays and Mullins as cornerstone pieces, the pitching is so abysmal that it doesn't matter what they do. And trying to get top talent to come to Baltimore, good luck with that one.  I do feel for you guys that care about the team and like baseball because it's a long tunnel you're looking at. 

[BSLChrisStoner]

Cant read it. Ill keep preaching it even if some dont want to hear it. Under this ownership we are going to act like a small market team. I think we will ultimately spend more than a TB does once we get internal pieces in place but we will always be in the 20-30 payroll range.

 

 

 

“I do feel like we’re in a very healthy spot right now as an organization,” Elias said. “It took some work to get into that spot. I feel like we’re there, and we have a ton of young talent. We just need to get that talent to the major leagues, and get more talent at the major league level, which is coming. And then, I do know that this will work.”

 

Meoli: If the Orioles are markedly better next year, it will mostly be because of the players who are already here. Much of Elias’ comments stemmed on whether he planned to make meaningful free-agent additions to the major league roster for 2022, moves that would supplement a promising young core and bring a winning mindset when the top prospects arrive.

 

The gist was that he would if the ideal scenario presented itself, but nothing would be rushed. The front office also has ownership’s “full financial support for executing our strategy of getting this team back to the playoffs in a realistic, viable, sustainable way,” he said. That strategy has, from the very outset of Elias’ tenure, not included spending significant resources on improving the major league roster. He’s said on multiple occasions it wouldn’t until the team was in a position to win, and this roster is too far from contention to warrant such a pivot in strategy.

 

Perhaps a free-agent infielder or two will want to rebuild their value on a short-term deal in Baltimore. Same goes for a veteran pitcher or two, the kind who have pitched effectively in the majors more recently than this year’s reinforcements in Matt Harvey and Félix Hernández.

 

It seems as if Elias is setting the expectation that there won’t be any splash signings in the hopes of at least tempering expectations so there’s not a letdown when this team looks largely the same come spring training. Whether that works is another question entirely. Another 100-loss season would be tough to stomach.

 

The Orioles haven’t given up on their young pitching, even if it needs supplementing.

 

“I think it would be very overly optimistic of us to assume that we have enough pitching to compete in our division, just by bringing back returning players,” Elias said. “But that said, we are very interested still and very encouraged by a lot of the guys that are on this 40-man roster, even though a lot of them had a lot of rough stretches in the middle of the summer, and I think we’ve seen some encouraging finishes for some of these guys in September, whether that’s in the minors or in the majors. So, a long way of saying this group, by and large, is still part of our future plans.”

 

 

There’s no ruling out another winter of unpopular trades.

 

Meoli: The players due big raises this winter are even more entrenched: Trey Mancini, Anthony Santander and John Means. In that order, their rising salaries make those players candidates for the Orioles to move on from and use to acquire prospects, should they continue to be in talent-acquisition mode.

 

“We like all those players,” Elias said. “They’re talented guys, very many of them have a lot of control left that would make us more apt to kind of put them off-limits. But I’ve said a number of times, we’re not doing our job as a baseball front office if we’re not entertaining conversations on our guys, by and large. So, we will do that, and I’m sure it’ll include a lot of guys from that group.

 

“But it doesn’t mean that we’re going to pull the trigger on anything. It doesn’t mean we don’t plan around them as if they’re going to be here in the future. That’s just the way we’re going to have to operate. It’s not anything specific to the Orioles by any stretch.”

[BSLChrisStoner]

When he was signed everyone was on board for a “real rebuild”.

Less than three years later it’s unacceptable despite having the first or second best farm system in baseball, going from negative international presence to catching up to the league and building a top notch facility in the DR, same thing with analytics and player development tools in the minors, and having some breakout players at the major league level (Mullins, Means, Mountcastle). I honestly don't see how it could've gone any better to this point.

 

I think the approach they had was correct. Support what they've done. 

Due to what they've done...  building a usable core, with more on the come, and removing salary obligations.... they should be looking to improve the ML product for '22. 

I don't see any justification for not doing so.  They don't have to play at the top of the market, but they don't have to be on the periphery either. 

 

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Make a big splash with Correa or Seager or try to sign multiple 1 yr upside guys that you can flip at the deadline if things go well. Nothing in between. The problem with the latter is no one wants to come to BMore on a 1 yr deal. Especially pitchers. I want the Os to go all in on Correa. Full on pitch. Overpay if necessary. Thats pretty much it though. Maybe a cheap BP arm or two. Other than that minor league deals. If you cant get Correa you at least dabble in the Seager market. After that shut it down and hope to convince someone the following offseason. Dont pay for a Bryant or Baez. Btw not opposed to start dealing some prospects for some youngerish team controlled talent.

[BobPhelan]

I think the approach they had was correct. Support what they've done.

Due to what they've done... building a usable core, with more on the come, and removing salary obligations.... they should be looking to improve the ML product for '22.

I don't see any justification for not doing so. They don't have to play at the top of the market, but they don't have to be on the periphery either.

I don’t disagree. I’ve already said I would sign one or two infielders and one or two starting pitchers.

The part that gets me is throwing your hands up in the air and saying the front office has to be cleared out because of an article summarizing his comments. I understand the frustration of the people who want a semi-watchable product while the real work goes on underneath. But that just isn't what they've decided is the best and they're not going to go all in this offseason.

They're not going to waste Rutschman and Rodriguez's service time IMO.

My issue isn't even with Ricker, he knows how I feel about him, I think I just need a break from the overwhelming negativity when there is so much to be excited about in the organization.

[You Play to Win the Game]

There may be a lot of hope for the future - I think there is. I can see that. That alone, at this point in time, does not negate how awful this is at the moment, and for a few years now. That's the bottom line for me. 

 

I've seen this song and dance before too. Remember when the cavalry was going to save us? How'd that turn out. Yes this current system is in better shape, but where's the pitching?  I want to hear more than corporate jargon BS from Elias. I like his scouting and development process, he's obviously well regarded and doing great there.

 

But he needs to be accountable for the major league team and it's crazy that he isn't. It's nuts to me that he can sit there after this stretch and still set the bar so freakin' low and not even care. That makes my blood boil. He needs to start adding and start winning. I don't expect a .500 record, I expect an effort. But he reminds me of AM, he did the same thing. The only people who actually tried to win at the major league level in my lifetime as an Orioles fan were Buck and Duquette. That's a fact. And I'm over it. I don't give a damn. Judge me if you want, but it's completely unacceptable to me. This isn't an experiment, it's a major league baseball team, get some damn wins. 

[BobPhelan]

There may be a lot of hope for the future - I think there is. I can see that. That alone, at this point in time, does not negate how awful this is at the moment, and for a few years now. That's the bottom line for me.

I've seen this song and dance before too. Remember when the cavalry was going to save us? How'd that turn out. Yes this current system is in better shape, but where's the pitching? I want to hear more than corporate jargon BS from Elias. I like his scouting and development process, he's obviously well regarded and doing great there.

But he needs to be accountable for the major league team and it's crazy that he isn't. It's nuts to me that he can sit there after this stretch and still set the bar so freakin' low and not even care. That makes my blood boil. He needs to start adding and start winning. I don't expect a .500 record, I expect an effort. But he reminds me of AM, he did the same thing. The only people who actually tried to win at the major league level in my lifetime as an Orioles fan were Buck and Duquette. That's a fact. And I'm over it. I don't give a damn. Judge me if you want, but it's completely unacceptable to me. This isn't an experiment, it's a major league baseball team, get some damn wins.

Not judging you man. To be fair I may be short tempered after getting surgery two days ago and being on steroids, antibiotics, and a narcotic lol.

I think we’re all ready for this season to be over…

[You Play to Win the Game]

Not judging you man. To be fair I may be short tempered after getting surgery two days ago and being on steroids, antibiotics, and a narcotic lol.

I think we’re all ready for this season to be over…

Oh jeez, feel better man. No fun. Hope recovery is quick.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Make a big splash with Correa or Seager or try to sign multiple 1 yr upside guys that you can flip at the deadline if things go well. Nothing in between. The problem with the latter is no one wants to come to BMore on a 1 yr deal. Especially pitchers. I want the Os to go all in on Correa. Full on pitch. Overpay if necessary. Thats pretty much it though. Maybe a cheap BP arm or two. Other than that minor league deals. If you cant get Correa you at least dabble in the Seager market. After that shut it down and hope to convince someone the following offseason. Dont pay for a Bryant or Baez. Btw not opposed to start dealing some prospects for some youngerish team controlled talent.

A splash and some BP pieces would be thrilling. That would signal they now want to start building the major league roster too.