131 replies to this topic

[Mackus]

When is the last time this team spent serious money? The 90's? Pardon me if I'm a little skeptical on that point.

They spent legit money during the last run. The problem recently has not been payroll but rather budget. For most teams those words mean the same thing, but not the Orioles and that's one of the biggest problems for the franchise. The GM never is simply given a budget and allowed to work within it, rather every single big move is treated as it's own decision that needs owner approval. Ownership said yes to enough things during the last good stretch that the payroll was absolutely acceptable, but the method is guaranteed to be disastrous long term, as we saw the last time.

There is no reason to think ownership has changed their mindset and that Elias will operate under a different system. We can only hope he will.

[bmore_ken]

$143M just three years ago. 10th highest in baseball at $163.5M in 2017.

I mean good money on free agents. I'm looking at that roster, what free agent was signed that year? Wait I did it again, I mean impact free agent. Chris Davis doesn't count. 

[bmore_ken]

They spent legit money during the last run. The problem recently has not been payroll but rather budget. For most teams those words mean the same thing, but not the Orioles and that's one of the biggest problems for the franchise. The GM never is simply given a budget and allowed to work within it, rather every single big move is treated as it's own decision that needs owner approval. Ownership said yes to enough things during the last good stretch that the payroll was absolutely acceptable, but the method is guaranteed to be disastrous long term, as we saw the last time.

There is no reason to think ownership has changed their mindset and that Elias will operate under a different system. We can only hope he will.

As I said, forgive me for being skeptical. 

[BobPhelan]

I mean good money on free agents. I'm looking at that roster, what free agent was signed that year? Wait I did it again, I mean impact free agent. Chris Davis doesn't count.

Just because the player doesn’t work out doesn’t mean you didn’t spend the money.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Targeting select FAs is the way to go anyway. You throw a lot of money at the FA market its unlikely to end up well for you. Short term and especially long term. The money is ideally spent on locking up as much in house talent through their 20s as possible.

[Slidemaster]

Just because the player doesn’t work out doesn’t mean you didn’t spend the money.

I think it's fair to not view Chris Davis as evidence that the ownership is willing to spend money on free agents. He was already in Baltimore, was viewed as a fan-favorite, and Angelos decided he was going to pay him whatever it took. Had he not had a connection with the franchise already, it's very, very unlikely that they would have pursued him as hard as they did.

[ivanbalt]

I mean good money on free agents. I'm looking at that roster, what free agent was signed that year? Wait I did it again, I mean impact free agent. Chris Davis doesn't count. 

It's funny/sad how expensive that roster got toward the end of Buck's era with poor results on the field.  Davis obviously being the centerpiece.

[bmore_ken]

Just because the player doesn’t work out doesn’t mean you didn’t spend the money.

There's a big difference between spending money and wasting it. Which is why I qualified my question. Even given that they spent a bunch that year, when was the last time they bought in an impact free agent? Because they didn't that year and the comment I responded to was about signing freee agents. 

[Nigel Tufnel]

when was the last time they bought in an impact free agent? 

 

Nelson Cruz?  Free agent signing who led the league in HR for a team that went to the ALCS.

[bmore_ken]

Nelson Cruz?  Free agent signing who led the league in HR for a team that went to the ALCS.

Gotta give you that one. So one impact free agent in 7 years that they signed on a bargain contract and then proceeded to not resign him?  That doesn't make me believe this team is going to be ready to sign any impact free agent in a few years when the team is "ready". 

[makoman]

If the argument is that the team is cheap (which I won't disagree with), it doesn't make a lot of sense to ignore huge spending just because they didn't work out and just call them "wasteful."

 

It also doesn't make sense to say that Chris Davis wasn't a free agent signing when he absolutely was. If they had somehow decided to spend $300M on Manny would that not have counted either?

 

Like Mackus said, the real problem isn't necessarily the spending, though that isn't ideal either. The problem is the micromanaging of that spending.

[Nigel Tufnel]

For whatever reason, the O's showed a lot more willingness to resign or extend their own free agents than to sign players away from other teams.  I think maybe PA thought it was less risky.

 

They gave pretty big money to guys like Markakis, Jones, Hardy, O'Day, Trumbo, and Davis to keep them on the team, and probably others that I'm forgetting about.  They gave Wieters a QO.  I guess you can split hairs and say that not all of them were technically free agent signings, but it seemed like it was an organizational choice to give the big money to guys they knew, and to spend less on players from outside.  They did sign quality free agents like Cruz, Chen, Koji, etc., but none for big money.

[Mackus]

There's a big difference between spending money and wasting it. Which is why I qualified my question. Even given that they spent a bunch that year, when was the last time they bought in an impact free agent? Because they didn't that year and the comment I responded to was about signing freee agents. 

 

 

The Orioles certainly haven't played at the top of the free agent market or even on extensions for their own.  Not even at the upper-middle.  They are strictly middle and below with very rare exceptions. Davis obviously was a top-of-the-market deal.  Gotta go all the way back to Miguel Tejada to find someone else they set the market on.  Everyone else is usually guys they think they are getting a bargain on, platers who didn't get what the expected and have to settle for "less" from the Orioles.  Only choosing from players that everyone else passed sure seems like a good way to end up with a lot of dud contracts.

 

These were all recent free agent deals, even if a few of them were re-signing guys all these guys were on the market for anyone to sign.

 

2018: Alex Cobb

2017: Andrew Cashner, Mark Trumbo

2016: Chris Davis, Darren O'Day, Yovani Gallardo

2015: 

2014: Ubaldo Jimenez, Nelson Cruz

[Mackus]

That doesn't make me believe this team is going to be ready to sign any impact free agent in a few years when the team is "ready". 

 

Is anyone trying to convince you that they will?  This is an honest question, I'm not sure anyone is arguing that they will play at the top of the FA market.

 

I do think they'll spend to keep guys here, and that overall the payroll numbers will be acceptable.  And they'll sign a few free agents when nobody else wants them.  But the management of that payroll is what I'm anticipating will remain a problem.  I will be shocked if the sons tell Elias he can spend $100M next year, $125M the year after, $160M for some max all-in season, then back down to $140M and allow him to go out and spend that money as he sees fit.  I think it'll remain a nightmare where Elias has to take each move to ownership and await their seemingly randomly decided approval or veto.  It's a terrible way to operate a sports franchise.

[Mike B]

For whatever reason, the O's showed a lot more willingness to resign or extend their own free agents than to sign players away from other teams.  I think maybe PA thought it was less risky.

 

They gave pretty big money to guys like Markakis, Jones, Hardy, O'Day, Trumbo, and Davis to keep them on the team, and probably others that I'm forgetting about.  They gave Wieters a QO.  I guess you can split hairs and say that not all of them were technically free agent signings, but it seemed like it was an organizational choice to give the big money to guys they knew, and to spend less on players from outside.  They did sign quality free agents like Cruz, Chen, Koji, etc., but none for big money.

I think with Peter it was a willingness to sign guys he had a history with.  He knew Hardy, Nick, Jones etc.  I think the Trumbo deal and resign was Dan.  

[Mike B]

More deadline and after deadline talk from Roch.

 

https://www.masnspor...es-go-down.html

[Mike B]

The interesting thing is the concern for how the holes are filled if guys like Scott and Fry are traded.  Roch has to understand that the team doesn't care who they plug in.

 

Look at the roster now, we have Eshelman, Green and Anderson filling holes.

[RichardZ]

I don't think they'll do it but I'd just a soon plug Kremer, Akin, and Lowther into relief roles and get them up and see if they can become bullpen pieces.  Not necessarily closing the door on them as being starters but they aren't going to prove anything more at AAA and they aren't ready to help in the rotation.

[Mike B]

I don't think they'll do it but I'd just a soon plug Kremer, Akin, and Lowther into relief roles and get them up and see if they can become bullpen pieces.  Not necessarily closing the door on them as being starters but they aren't going to prove anything more at AAA and they aren't ready to help in the rotation.

It is not a bad idea, but it does seem once a guy goes to the pen, the odds of them returning to a rotation are small.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

To me not resigning Cruz was the biggest mistake they made. Sure Davis didn't work out but nobody thought he would totally flop. They let Cruz walk after he did more than they could have hoped for.