2525 replies to this topic

[hallas]

Have a feeling Pat is gone too though FBs arent used much around the league so we will see. Have to think the Ravens want him back.

The Ravens can (and have) lined up their TE2 and TE3 in the backfield, making them blocking fullbacks in everything but name. Today im pretty sure they even lined up Andrews in the backfield..
Given how good the Ravens usually are in short yardage (when Lamar is healthy and their line isn't made up of spare parts) I really don't think they need a FB that can be a ball carrier. Ricard doesn't even get carries - he's had 3 carries in the past 2 years. So if you had to pick between a blocking pass catcher versus a blocking runner, I think you go for the pass catcher most of the time.


Kyle Juszczyk exists, sure, but he's basically a short TE with a FB label.

[cprenegade]

Dont know why Im doing this but I am. Fantasy question of the day because it aint happening. Would you trade Lamar straight up for Rodgers?

 

No.  The only way I would do that is if I think the rest of the entire team is Super bowl contender caliber and all I need is a QB to take it there.  Like TB last year.  But the rest of this team is not SB caliber and trading for Rogers shortens your window to 1-2 seasons before you need to go find another franchise QB.  At least Jackson is young enough that you have time to fix the other areas that need fixing.  

[Slidemaster]

No. The only way I would do that is if I think the rest of the entire team is Super bowl contender caliber and all I need is a QB to take it there. Like TB last year. But the rest of this team is not SB caliber and trading for Rogers shortens your window to 1-2 seasons before you need to go find another franchise QB. At least Jackson is young enough that you have time to fix the other areas that need fixing.

Also Rodgers is an ahole.

[cprenegade]

Also Rodgers is an ahole.

 

If his teammates have a problem with him, than ok.  But as far as I can see they don't.  So I don't really care if you are an ahole, as long as you can win games and your team is behind you, I'm good....go be an ahole.  

[Steve55]

If his teammates have a problem with him, than ok.  But as far as I can see they don't.  So I don't really care if you are an ahole, as long as you can win games and your team is behind you, I'm good....go be an ahole.  

 

That's the difference between being a better ahole. Rogers is a winning ahole, Mayfield is not.

[Mackus]

The Ravens can (and have) lined up their TE2 and TE3 in the backfield, making them blocking fullbacks in everything but name. Today im pretty sure they even lined up Andrews in the backfield..
Given how good the Ravens usually are in short yardage (when Lamar is healthy and their line isn't made up of spare parts) I really don't think they need a FB that can be a ball carrier. Ricard doesn't even get carries - he's had 3 carries in the past 2 years. So if you had to pick between a blocking pass catcher versus a blocking runner, I think you go for the pass catcher most of the time.


Kyle Juszczyk exists, sure, but he's basically a short TE with a FB label.

 

Ricard is probably the toughest one for me to predict in terms of FAs and cuts.  I'm sure they want him back.  I also imagine that they think they can find another stud FB based on their ridiculous history of doing so.  And I have no idea what Ricard might be worth as a FA.  He's certainly not getting Juszcyk money, but he might get more than everyone else which would be 3/$11-12M or so.  He was nearly $4M against the cap this season on his previous extension, so it's not much, if any, of a raise but they'll have to think about how close to his production they could find in the draft or UDFA for the minimum salary.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

No. The only way I would do that is if I think the rest of the entire team is Super bowl contender caliber and all I need is a QB to take it there. Like TB last year. But the rest of this team is not SB caliber and trading for Rogers shortens your window to 1-2 seasons before you need to go find another franchise QB. At least Jackson is young enough that you have time to fix the other areas that need fixing.

Part of the reason I asked,and again its fantasy land, is because we have good skill position players. I truly believe a highly skilled pure passing QB would do a lot of damage with Brown, Bateman, Duvernay, Andrews, and then Dobbins as his lead back.

[makoman]

Ricard is probably the toughest one for me to predict in terms of FAs and cuts.  I'm sure they want him back.  I also imagine that they think they can find another stud FB based on their ridiculous history of doing so.  And I have no idea what Ricard might be worth as a FA.  He's certainly not getting Juszcyk money, but he might get more than everyone else which would be 3/$11-12M or so.  He was nearly $4M against the cap this season on his previous extension, so it's not much, if any, of a raise but they'll have to think about how close to his production they could find in the draft or UDFA for the minimum salary.

Not sure how accurate their position listings are (they have Ricard as DL after all) but per OTC the top 5 FB contracts in average annual value:

Juszczyk-$5.4M

Derek Watt-$3.25M (mostly a STer)

CJ Ham-$3M

Nick Bellore-$2.225M (mostly a STer)

Andy Janovich-$1.9M

 

Only Juice ($27M), Watt ($9.75M), and Ham ($12M) had total contract value over $6M.

 

Now Ricard is a deserving Pro Bowler but the position doesn't get paid. I agree around 3/12 is probably fair. Since that was basically his cap hit this year I can see them doing it again. If they move on from Roman priorities may change.

[Biggsy]

Part of the reason I asked,and again its fantasy land, is because we have good skill position players. I truly believe a highly skilled pure passing QB would do a lot of damage with Brown, Bateman, Duvernay, Andrews, and then Dobbins as his lead back.

It's a thought. I love Lamar. He's going to only be 25 next season. And when healthy, he can do things no one else can do.

With that said, Rodgers would basically make you a top 3 offense instantly with our skill position talent. As good as Lamar can be, Rodgers is better. He's thrown like 400 TD's and like 96 INT's with GB. That is obscene. So that's a tough question. It would 100% be mortgaging your future. In 2 years you're hitting the reset button and going full rebuild.

In the real world, I fear he could end up in Pittsburgh or Cleveland. Pittsburgh's offense with Rodgers at the helm would be downright scary. Roethlisberger struggles to consistently hit anything over 5 yards. Imagine Johnson and Claypool with a QB that can put a ball on a dime from 40 yards out.

[Ravens2006]

Remember, in 2019-2020, Lamar completed 65% with 62 TDs and 15 INTs.  He added 14 more rushing TDs of his own.

 

With Stanley and Brown holding the edges, he was other-worldly at times.  When Stanley went down and they re-shuffled a little bit, he dropped off a little but was still a major weapon.

 

This year, with neither one, and significant drop-offs at BOTH positions (never mind losing their top 3 RBs and blocking TE)... he struggled to the point that some suddenly started to question his long-term value.

 

Give the guy stability at the two tackle positions... and I would bet he's a lot closer to 2019-2020 Lamar than 2021 Lamar.  Where despite his struggles, was still 7-4 with some game saving fourth quarter performances.

[Biggsy]

Remember, in 2019-2020, Lamar completed 65% with 62 TDs and 15 INTs. He added 14 more rushing TDs of his own.

With Stanley and Brown holding the edges, he was other-worldly at times. When Stanley went down and they adjusted, he dropped off a little but was still a major weapon.

This year, with neither one, and significant drop-offs at BOTH positions (never mind losing their top 3 RBs and blocking TE)... he struggled to the point that some suddenly started to question his long-term value.

Give the guy stability at the two tackle positions... and I would bet he's a lot closer to 2019-2020 Lamar than 2021 Lamar. Where despite his struggles, was still 7-4 with some game saving fourth quarter performances.

All valid points.

I think you saw his distrust in both tackle positions by the way he'd leave the pocket. He almost always tried to scramble right up the middle vs getting outside. To me that tells me he knew pressure would be coming from the edges.

[hallas]

Not sure how accurate their position listings are (they have Ricard as DL after all) but per OTC the top 5 FB contracts in average annual value:
Juszczyk-$5.4M
Derek Watt-$3.25M (mostly a STer)
CJ Ham-$3M
Nick Bellore-$2.225M (mostly a STer)
Andy Janovich-$1.9M

Only Juice ($27M), Watt ($9.75M), and Ham ($12M) had total contract value over $6M.

Now Ricard is a deserving Pro Bowler but the position doesn't get paid. I agree around 3/12 is probably fair. Since that was basically his cap hit this year I can see them doing it again. If they move on from Roman priorities may change.

Juszczyk's contract still kind of confuses me, but at the same time it's really hard for me to quantify the accomplishments of a blocking back that isn't a total zero in terms of skill position stats. They basically paid him budget-tier TE1 money to be a blocking back that doubles as a TE2. My gut is that it was, and is, a significant overpay, but it mostly worked out because he's still on the field and producing.

[Mackus]

Juszczyk's contract still kind of confuses me, but at the same time it's really hard for me to quantify the accomplishments of a blocking back that isn't a total zero in terms of skill position stats. They basically paid him budget-tier TE1 money to be a blocking back that doubles as a TE2. My gut is that it was, and is, a significant overpay, but it mostly worked out because he's still on the field and producing.

 

He's actually on his second contract with the 49ers.  He left the Ravens for a 4/$21M deal after the 2017 season.  He then signed a 5/$27M contract prior to the final year of that original deal (this current season).  49ers seem very happy with whatever he's been doing.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

People absolutely lambasted the 49ers for the initial contract they gave him too

[You Play to Win the Game]

People absolutely lambasted the 49ers for the initial contract they gave him too

How many playoff games have they won since? Maybe it doesn’t make sense to allocate precious salary cap resources to the FB position these days. Even if they do produce at the position. Was my argument against extending Boyle when we did. Clearly was a nice to have, not a need to have.

[Mackus]

How many playoff games have they won since? 

 

Two (plus a bye).  They were in the Super Bowl the year before last.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Two (plus a bye). They were in the Super Bowl the year before last.

Maybe they would’ve won without that much going to the FB.

[hallas]

How many playoff games have they won since? Maybe it doesn’t make sense to allocate precious salary cap resources to the FB position these days. Even if they do produce at the position. Was my argument against extending Boyle when we did. Clearly was a nice to have, not a need to have.

I don't think it's fair to treat him as a FB. He catches more passes and for more yardage than our TE2, and he's done it for years. And he still runs the ball once in a while. But it's still a lot of money for a skill position player whose primary responsibility is blocking.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I don't think it's fair to treat him as a FB. He catches more passes and for more yardage than our TE2, and he's done it for years. And he still runs the ball once in a while. But it's still a lot of money for a skill position player whose primary responsibility is blocking.

He rushes so little there’s no point in even counting it, the 26 receptions a year at 9.4 per reception is certainly very good production to go along with the blocking.

I don’t know shit about blocking schemes or any schemes, but just conceptually, I don’t think paying FB’s or non pass catching TE’s that kind of money with the cap being what it is.

[hallas]

In terms of the Ravens, I think there's room on the roster for one of Boyle and Ricard. If you think Boyle is going to be healthy then I really don't see much point in paying for both Boyle and Ricard. The Ravens already run single back pretty often. I'd want him cheaper than 3/12 to be honest. But maybe we want the depth. That would be a good reason to sign him. But that's a luxury, not a necessity.