540 replies to this topic

[BSLSteveBirrer]

The Epic - since you asked I will try and answer.

 

Taylor - Officers should be charged based upon an investigation. Its up to a jury to decide the case based on all the facts. This may indeed be all started by a no knock warrant. Not sure this situation warranted that.

 

Gray - arrests and charges were filed. Went to court where it should go. They jury decided. Not me. Not you. Nor anybody else. Now that said this one looks bad to me.

 

Garner - Charges were filed and a grand jury decided to not indite. I think this one is tough to judge. There doesn't seem to be excessive force based upon the autopsy but not sure the situation needed to get to that level in the first place. 

 

Now I also think that none of these types of situations ever warrant the rioting going on. Two wrongs don't make a right seems applicable.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

I don't understand why people get so angry that opinionated people who happen to be athletes use what power they have to make a statement. 

 

Yes, sports is supposed to be an escape from life but it is played by people who have the same thoughts about things as everyone else.

 

Asking them to stay quiet on things they feel very strongly about is not fair.

 

And as for Tony's rant on closing down OH, if he thinks this is just about Jacob Blake he has had his head in the sand for the last 5+ years.

I don't think anyone is saying that those athletes shouldn't have a voice. What they are asking is for them to do so outside the playing field. 

[Mike in STL]

I don't understand why people get so angry that opinionated people who happen to be athletes use what power they have to make a statement.

Yes, sports is supposed to be an escape from life but it is played by people who have the same thoughts about things as everyone else.

Asking them to stay quiet on things they feel very strongly about is not fair.

And as for Tony's rant on closing down OH, if he thinks this is just about Jacob Blake he has had his head in the sand for the last 5+ years.

Exactly. Some people think players are stat producing robots.

[Roll Tide]

It's very easy to keep politics out of sports; for example, heath care, foreign policy, tax policy, and so on. It is not easy to keep social matters relating to equal rights and treatment out of sports.

Further

 

Personally, I've had an issue with the politics of BLM since the incident where the criminal (regardless of skin color), wrestled with police, stole a tazer, ran from police, fired the tazer, and was shot. How any one with any reasonable amount of intelligence can call that murder is insane.

 

I have friends who are police officers and feel for them at this time. I cant blame Tony for his reaction and hate to see the board down.

 

It disgusts me that the Orioles and Ravens have gotten deep into this situation. I'm not surprised since a majority of professional athletes are people of color.

 

With that said .... In the scenario above, I dont care what race you are! When you behave like he did, you are behaving like a criminal.

 

Pretty simple .... Follow the lawful orders and a lot of this stuff would be avoided. No different than the individual was killed this morning by the MD state police at 95/195. If you follow those orders and the police abuse their power that is a whole different story.

[Roll Tide]

I was saying that if baseball was a part of Tony as he said, it seemingly, at least temporarily left his life due to his feelings on the O's/MLB supporting African-Americans.

 

 

I think if you read his response the message is quite different. He supports police officers who have a tough job to do. Dealing with people who are now pretty regularly not cooperating with law enforcement and following their instruction.

 

Most of these situations could be avoided if people would just cooperate and follow instructions.The individuals and their families need to accept the accountability for how they behave....Again, regardless of color.race, sexual orientation, etc etc etc.

[mweb08]

It disgusts me that the Orioles and Ravens have gotten deep into this situation. I'm not surprised since a majority of professional athletes are people of color.

It disgusts me that African-Americans have been oppressed in this country for 400 years.

[Mike in STL]

The Epic - since you asked I will try and answer.

Taylor - Officers should be charged based upon an investigation. Its up to a jury to decide the case based on all the facts. This may indeed be all started by a no knock warrant. Not sure this situation warranted that.

Gray - arrests and charges were filed. Went to court where it should go. They jury decided. Not me. Not you. Nor anybody else. Now that said this one looks bad to me.

Garner - Charges were filed and a grand jury decided to not indite. I think this one is tough to judge. There doesn't seem to be excessive force based upon the autopsy but not sure the situation needed to get to that level in the first place.

Now I also think that none of these types of situations ever warrant the rioting going on. Two wrongs don't make a right seems applicable.

I think this is why there needs to be reform. Which is part of the protesting. Unfortunately, our legal system moves at a snails pace. So the “we want justice now” crowd, doesn’t get what they want. Because rightfully, the charges get brought, and a jury decides their fate. But there is so much gray area in policy, and straight up bad policy to begin with, that reform has to happen so that all cops and civilians know the rules, the punishment, and the process can be expedited.

I mean, In Baltimore, part of level 1 (1!!!!!) of use of force is “displaying the arc” which is the warning setting on a taser that shows the shock, without wasting the cartridge. That is one of the parts of level 1 (!!!!!!) of gaining compliance. How is that helping to deescalate any situation? CG use of force, level 1 is your presence. Not standing with your hand on your gun. Not speaking in a condescending way. Actually standing at a 45 degree angle so your gun on your hip is kinda behind you. Baltimore, and I’m sure many other cities, just skip over this part.

That is where change needs to happen. In one city it shouldn’t be okay to toss a guy head first into a paddy wagon and in another it’s not. Rules need to be amended nationwide to a standard that coos can do their job, and people can expect consequences for their actions. Resisting arrest shouldn’t = shoot to kill. But in some jurisdictions it might actually, which is part of the needed change.

[The Epic]

The Epic - since you asked I will try and answer.

 

Taylor - Officers should be charged based upon an investigation. Its up to a jury to decide the case based on all the facts. This may indeed be all started by a no knock warrant. Not sure this situation warranted that.

 

Gray - arrests and charges were filed. Went to court where it should go. They jury decided. Not me. Not you. Nor anybody else. Now that said this one looks bad to me.

 

Garner - Charges were filed and a grand jury decided to not indite. I think this one is tough to judge. There doesn't seem to be excessive force based upon the autopsy but not sure the situation needed to get to that level in the first place. 

 

Now I also think that none of these types of situations ever warrant the rioting going on. Two wrongs don't make a right seems applicable.

 

Thanks.

 

But this is all I'm saying. All three of these are situations that could have been avoided if things were done the right way but the officers that are expected to be held to a higher standard. All three of these situations "look bad," even several years later. However, if I did any of those things, I'd go to jail. If these guys need to be held to a higher standard, then they need to be looked at with higher scrutiny. 

 

However, these situations/results are pure products of the institution. There is no reason that Gray should have died in the back of that van. -Any- reasonable gun owner would start shooting if someone broke into their house unannounced. The escalation in the Garner killing was absolutely unnecessary for the incident itself. The vast, vast, VAST majority of these statements always amount to, "Well, I guess they could have done X so that they didn't kill them, but they didn't. Oh well." (I'm not saying that's you, but that's the country's general response to these issues.) George Floyd was the exception, and it seems like that's even turning on its head.

 

Also I -absolutely- believe that this warrants the protests/riots/"looting" going on but I know I'm fully alone on that island and will leave that piece alone. 

[The Epic]

 

 

I think if you read his response the message is quite different. He supports police officers who have a tough job to do. Dealing with people who are now pretty regularly not cooperating with law enforcement and following their instruction.

 

Most of these situations could be avoided if people would just cooperate and follow instructions.The individuals and their families need to accept the accountability for how they behave....Again, regardless of color.race, sexual orientation, etc etc etc.

 

I think you're looking at this entirely wrong. 

 

Just because one straw broke the camel's back does not mean that the other straws do not exist.  

 

We've had several discussions before about how innocent people have been harassed, hurt, raped, or even killed by police officers and former police officers...with little penalty, because they're police. It's happened to me on multiple occasions, and I'm the most straight-laced person you may ever know. (Also the best-looking.)

 

We can talk about personal responsibility all you want, but as long as the police (again, the ones that should be held to a higher standard) continue to not be held accountable, it's a dead issue.

[SBTarheel]

Protests are supposed to make people uncomfortable, 

[mweb08]

Thanks.

But this is all I'm saying. All three of these are situations that could have been avoided if things were done the right way but the officers that are expected to be held to a higher standard. All three of these situations "look bad," even several years later. However, if I did any of those things, I'd go to jail. If these guys need to be held to a higher standard, then they need to be looked at with higher scrutiny.

However, these situations/results are pure products of the institution. There is no reason that Gray should have died in the back of that van. -Any- reasonable gun owner would start shooting if someone broke into their house unannounced. The escalation in the Garner killing was absolutely unnecessary for the incident itself. The vast, vast, VAST majority of these statements always amount to, "Well, I guess they could have done X so that they didn't kill them, but they didn't. Oh well." (I'm not saying that's you, but that's the country's general response to these issues.) George Floyd was the exception, and it seems like that's even turning on its head.

Also I -absolutely- believe that this warrants the protests/riots/"looting" going on but I know I'm fully alone on that island and will leave that piece alone.

Regarding that last part, here's a tweet that resonates with me:

Nikole Hannah Jones
Let me edit this one: We can just be for justice. Because peace without justice requires people to accept their oppression.

https://twitter.com/...0520955904?s=19

[SBTarheel]

Hey, at least we haven't seen "But Chicago" as a response!!

 

Yet. 

[Roll Tide]

They manage to do it when it's a white person.

I have witnessed a number of situation where police officers had to deal with drunk patron leaving an establishment and trying to drive. The outcome is often pretty ugly for that individual and sometimes leads to death.

 

The major difference is that it doesnt make the front page and national news since the victim is not black.

 

Let me ask you...... How do you feel about the situation this morning on 95?

 

Police pulls a person of color over because he was swerving and weaving

 

He pulls over but is not cooperative

 

Officer tries to take the keys out of the ignition

 

Criminal starts and tries to take off

 

Drags officer 2000 FT before criminal is shot by officer

 

Officer ends up at shock trama with injuries resulting from the criminal conduct

 

HOW DO YOU THINK THIS SHOUDLVE BEEN HANDLED?

 

Do you let the guys drive away? What if he leaves the scene and kills one of your relatives while drunk behind the wheel???

 

 

Would you be furious and want to sew the police department for failing to protect your love one by letting him go????

 

........................................

 

How about Rayshard Brooks.... He resists arrest, wrestles with police, steals a weapon in the struggle, tries to flee while shooting it at the officer, and is shot in turn.

 

Sorry sir but that is not murder!

 

What was the police officer/officers supposed to do?

 

Let him run ???

 

Same question ..... what if he leaves the scene and kills one of your relatives trying to flee???
 

 

 

Would you be furious and want to sew the police department for failing to protect your love one by letting him go????

 

As a society, we really need to take a hard look! Its easy to say that this happened or that happened because of race.

 

I wonder out loud, How many people of each race actually resist or disobey a  direct order?

 

I wonder out loud, how may of each are carrying knives and guns illegally?

 

I wonder out loud, How many of each engage in a physical confrontation with a police officer?

 

I saw a few weeks back a 60ish year old woman standing in the middle of the street throwing punches at a police officer. The lady was a very large woman and was very aggressive. The arresting officers were both men of color. The one officer threw a punch and hit her after she swung several times at his partner.

 

If she had fallen and hit her head and died...How would you feel? If the officer was white would you feel any different?

 

This whole mess just disgusts me because there is a common sense factor that is pretty easy to figure out.

[mweb08]

You speak of common sense, but what about common knowledge? It's common knowledge that overall, African Americans are treated worse than white people by police and treated worse by our country.

Of course some situations where force is used against African Americans are justifiable, but zooming out, the disparity of treatment is unacceptable. It is also built into the system as has been previously stated by others.

[JeremyStrain]

Thanks.

 

But this is all I'm saying. All three of these are situations that could have been avoided if things were done the right way but the officers that are expected to be held to a higher standard. All three of these situations "look bad," even several years later. However, if I did any of those things, I'd go to jail. If these guys need to be held to a higher standard, then they need to be looked at with higher scrutiny. 

 

However, these situations/results are pure products of the institution. There is no reason that Gray should have died in the back of that van. -Any- reasonable gun owner would start shooting if someone broke into their house unannounced. The escalation in the Garner killing was absolutely unnecessary for the incident itself. The vast, vast, VAST majority of these statements always amount to, "Well, I guess they could have done X so that they didn't kill them, but they didn't. Oh well." (I'm not saying that's you, but that's the country's general response to these issues.) George Floyd was the exception, and it seems like that's even turning on its head.

 

Also I -absolutely- believe that this warrants the protests/riots/"looting" going on but I know I'm fully alone on that island and will leave that piece alone. 

 

I'm with you. I mean I won't be out there doing it myself, but I completely understand why it's necessary too. Cause without something like this nothing will change. It hasn't in 100s of years, even if maybe it's becoming less mainstream every generation, clearly it's still here. It's like we've been trying to change this since the 1800s, how are people still holding on to this? The past decade I thought we were finally starting to turn some corners...and then this administration comes in and it's like he turned on the bat signal and they all came out of hiding.

 

It's almost hand in hand with people getting throwing a fit saying ALL lives matter. Yes. They do. And the people protesting that won't argue that (aside from the fact that they are missing the point), they do ALL matter, but THIS is the group that's getting left behind or getting mentioned with an asterisk. You don't get to then say oh, but crime, and this and that. Dude, just acknowledge that a large chunk of our population clearly think some people are less than others. Same with but I support law enforcement. Yeah, so do these people protesting. They want cops to show up and lock up the crackhead trying to break into their house too. But they want to be able to do it without worrying that cop is one of those aforementioned large chunks of the population that's going to confuse the homeowner and crackhead and shoot them. I worry in places like the midwest where this is the worst, most of those crackheads and tweakers are white. Are they going to show up and shoot the black homeowner because they get there and make an immediate judgement call who is in the wrong when they see black and white? Sorry...got distracted...point being there are good cops out there. People who really do just want to protect. People out there scared for their own lives, but trying to protect the people that need it. There are also racist cops. And overly testosterone fueled cops. And just flat out dirty cops. Life is shades of grey. But don't stick your head in the sand and act like this stuff isn't happening way too often. Gotta find a way to remove those that are so scared for themselves that they become a danger to others. And those without empathy. And those that are too stupid to think before they act. That's what defunding and reform is all about. It's not marxist, it's about using better criteria and not giving too much power to those who won't use it well.
 

[Roll Tide]

I think you're looking at this entirely wrong. 

 

Just because one straw broke the camel's back does not mean that the other straws do not exist.  

 

We've had several discussions before about how innocent people have been harassed, hurt, raped, or even killed by police officers and former police officers...with little penalty, because they're police. It's happened to me on multiple occasions, and I'm the most straight-laced person you may ever know. (Also the best-looking.)

 

We can talk about personal responsibility all you want, but as long as the police (again, the ones that should be held to a higher standard) continue to not be held accountable, it's a dead issue.

 

His son is a police officer

 

I refuse to believe that most or all of police officers are bad! Yes there are some and I don't argue that. But who is to blame when a criminal ....Yes, I said criminal is resisting arrest?

 

I agree with the higher standard but we can agree to disagree on who is wrong when

 

 

The officer in the George Floyd incident abused his power, was wrong, and deserves to spend his life in prison

 

 

The incidents in Wisconsin and Atlanta were not IMO

 

 

 

[BSLChrisStoner]

Re: Above... 

 

1) Situation on 95... was there an accusation it wasn't handled correctly?  Basically you are describing an event, perhaps handled correctly that resulted in an officer being hurt (an unfortunate possibility with the job). There is no direct correlation to that event, and events of direct Police misconduct.  (Based on the description here.)

 

2) Brooks... it had been determined he was impaired, that should factor. They (the Police) had already identified him. He was running with a taser - and even with having fired, or further threat of using the taser - he wasn't a threat to the lives of the two Officers. Deadly force was not required.  Regroup. Call in backups. Use the identification you have. Make an arrest. Charge him for not cooperating. What ifs are what ifs and unknown. What's known is that he was unnecessarily killed. 

[Roll Tide]

You speak of common sense, but what about common knowledge? It's common knowledge that overall, African Americans are treated worse than white people by police and treated worse by our country.

Of course some situations where force is used against African Americans are justifiable, but zooming out, the disparity of treatment is unacceptable. It is also built into the system as has been previously stated by others.

I noticed you didnt answer my questions ...Except with another question!

 

Please go back and respond to my question!

 

So because of common knowledge you think that is okay to ignore the lawful order, resist arrest, reach for a weapon on an officers hip, reach in your car to grab a knife or hide the knife that you are carrying. Be in a place against a restraining order ?

[BSLChrisStoner]

Obviously the discussions here are going way past what is tangibly sports related. 
We can continue this, with the idea that it all ties to what we are seeing athletes protest against, and the larger discussions going on all around us... 

But when we can bring back directly to sports, and the reaction of the sports world, please do. 

[The Epic]

Re: Above... 

 

1) Situation on 95... was there an accusation it wasn't handled correctly?  Basically you are describing an event, perhaps handled correctly that resulted in an officer being hurt (an unfortunate possibility with the job). There is no direct correlation to that event, and events of direct Police misconduct.  (Based on the description here.)

 

2) Brooks... it had been determined he was impaired, that should factor. They (the Police) had already identified him. He was running with a taser - and even with having fired, or further threat of using the taser - he wasn't a threat to the lives of the two Officers. Deadly force was not required.  Regroup. Call in backups. Use the identification you have. Make an arrest. Charge him for not cooperating. What ifs are what ifs and unknown. What's known is that he was unnecessarily killed. 

 

They literally could have taken Brooks' car, let him go home/call a friend, and arrested him in the morning.

 

Cops weren't even necessary then, if we're being totally honest.