167 replies to this topic

[Adam Wolff]

It's fascinating to me what Krause was able to do to tear the team apart. I just don't see any scenario where that could happen today. I'm trying to imagine the closest thing to this right now.. maybe the Warriors winning a few more championships and then Bob Myers telling Kerr he's done, openly threatening to trade Klay, all while Steph is going wtf? Compared to the amount of control players have now, it's just crazy to imagine.

[SportsGuy]

I just can’t imagine wanting to do it.

I guess you have the idea of wanting to prove yourself but prove yourself by keeping the core and continually adding to it.

The Bulls had 2 3 peats and those teams had different role players.. Make that your challenge.

[mweb08]

It's fascinating to me what Krause was able to do to tear the team apart. I just don't see any scenario where that could happen today. I'm trying to imagine the closest thing to this right now.. maybe the Warriors winning a few more championships and then Bob Myers telling Kerr he's done, openly threatening to trade Klay, all while Steph is going wtf? Compared to the amount of control players have now, it's just crazy to imagine.

It was pretty crazy, especially thinking it after the '97 title. After '98, he and the organization still should have given those guys the opportunity to falter on their own like MJ said, but it wasn't a totally insane view otherwise.

That team was on the decline and having to pay Scottie was going to make it more difficult to add talent to support that declining core.

So while Krause wasn't totally off on the idea that the team was falling off, what he may not have properly realized was the league being pretty bad in the second half of the 90's, which was key for being able to achieve that 3-peat and also perhaps would have given the Bulls a fighting chance at another ring.

Conversely, the last dance was quite the source of motivation for MJ and the team, so who knows how much impact that had on the '98 season.

[SportsGuy]

It was pretty crazy, especially thinking it after the '97 title. After '98, he and the organization still should have given those guys the opportunity to falter on their own like MJ said, but it wasn't a totally insane view otherwise.

That team was on the decline and having to pay Scottie was going to make it more difficult to add talent to support that declining core.

So while Krause wasn't totally off on the idea that the team was falling off, what he may not have properly realized was the league being pretty bad in the second half of the 90's, which was key for being able to achieve that 3-peat and also perhaps would have given the Bulls a fighting chance at another ring.

Conversely, the last dance was quite the source of motivation for MJ and the team, so who knows how much impact that had on the '98 season.

MJ didn't need motivation to win another title.

 

I do think you just ride it out and see what happens...and if they lost the next year and Phil and MJ wanted to come back, you do it...and then work on Scottie.

 

In other words, I wasn't letting Phil or MJ out the door unless they wanted to leave.  No way they should have been forced out.

[BSLChrisStoner]

CBS Sports: 

 

Michael Jordan's forgotten moments: From clutch playoff shots with Bulls, to throwback nights as aging Wizard
https://www.cbssport...s-aging-wizard/

 

Dennis Rodman's run with the Bulls: Recounting the eventful and successful stint with Michael Jordan and Co.
https://www.cbssport...-jordan-and-co/

 

Michael Jordan's Bulls vs. 'Bad Boy' Pistons: A timeline of the bad blood, playoff battles in heated rivalry
https://www.cbssport...heated-rivalry/

 

What if the Chicago Bulls traded Scottie Pippen? Exploring the three blockbusters deals that never happened
https://www.cbssport...never-happened/

[BSLChrisStoner]

SI: Behind the Numbers of Michael Jordan's 1997–98 Bulls
https://www.si.com/n...-the-last-dance

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Quite clear Michael doesnt have much respect for Isiah. Not just the exchange after the Pistons walked off the court. Michael also noted several times needing to be held in the same breath as Magic and Larry for leading teams to championship . Never mentioned the star of the then two time defending champs.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Kept him off the Dream Team.

Isiah still pokes at him time to time too.


Would love to see today's NBA officiated like it was then.

[BSLChrisStoner]

SI: Last Night on 'The Last Dance': Episodes 3 & 4
https://www.si.com/n...pisodes-3-and-4

[SportsGuy]

Say what you want about Rodman, hard to imagine having a better teammate than he was.

He was willing to do everything you hate to do and did it with pride.

Interesting to hear MJ say that Rodman was one of the smartest players he ever played with.

[BSLChrisStoner]

CBS Sports: Ranking Michael Jordan's teammates: The 23 best players ever to suit up alongside No. 23
https://www.cbssport...longside-no-23/

[BSLChrisStoner]

The Ringer: ‘The Last Dance’ Details the Grudges and Grievances of Michael Jordan

 

SI: Last Night on 'The Last Dance': Episodes 5 & 6
https://www.si.com/n...pisodes-5-and-6

 

CBS Sports: 'The Last Dance': Michael Jordan's Atlantic City gambling, Kobe Bryant connection among key takeaways
https://www.cbssport...-key-takeaways/

[Mike B]

Say what you want about Rodman, hard to imagine having a better teammate than he was.

He was willing to do everything you hate to do and did it with pride.

Interesting to hear MJ say that Rodman was one of the smartest players he ever played with.

I loved the part about how they gave Rodman a vacation so he could go to Vegas.  I thought it was funny how Jordan had to go drag him out of the hotel room to get him back to practice. Definitely a strange character.

[BSLChrisStoner]

CBS Sports: Ranking Michael Jordan and the Bulls' 10 best playoff opponents during their two three-peats
https://www.cbssport...wo-three-peats/

[mweb08]

CBS Sports: Ranking Michael Jordan and the Bulls' 10 best playoff opponents during their two three-peats
https://www.cbssport...wo-three-peats/

The NBA was pretty bad in the 90's in terms of depth of talent and quality of teams. Expansion played a big role in that, but the league also saw some stars decline or retire early such as Magic, Larry, Isiah, and even a guy like Daugherty, plus guys literally dying (Bias,Lewis,Drazen), as well as a relatively poor influx of talent in the late 80's to early 90's with some notable exceptions of course.

Look at this list of teams and then check to see who their 3rd, 4th, and 5th best players were. Or in some cases, the #2 and/or #1 player isn't all that.

The team that is #1 here basically just elevated to the Finals through attrition as Malone and Stockton were obviously getting up there in years and the supporting cast didn't improve much, if at all, yet somehow they became a 64 and 62 win team in '97 and '98. The somehow was the league wasn't good.

[BSLChrisStoner]

The NBA was pretty bad in the 90's in terms of depth of talent and quality of teams. Expansion played a big role in that, but the league also saw some stars decline or retire early such as Magic, Larry, Isiah, and even a guy like Daugherty, plus guys literally dying (Bias,Lewis,Drazen), as well as a relatively poor influx of talent in the late 80's to early 90's with some notable exceptions of course.

Look at this list of teams and then check to see who their 3rd, 4th, and 5th best players were. Or in some cases, the #2 and/or #1 player isn't all that.

The team that is #1 here basically just elevated to the Finals through attrition as Malone and Stockton were obviously getting up there in years and the supporting cast didn't improve much, if at all, yet somehow they became a 64 and 62 win team in '97 and '98. The somehow was the league wasn't good.

Believe it was Mark Jackson - might have been Jalen Rose, but I think it was Jackson - raised the point that he thought the teams the Bulls got through.... the Knicks, Pacers, Portland, Phoenix, Seattle, Utah...  would be remembered better, held in higher esteem without Jordan.  That each of those teams were better than other teams which have won titles, and would compete with the best teams of today. 

 

Bigger point might be that the game has changed so much, it's hard to compare the eras. 

Which era are these hypothetical games being played? How are they being called?

 

ESPN's Get Up staff this morning was saying they estimated Jordan would have averaged 40+ ppg in his prime if playing today, with the additional possessions, three more 3's per game, and lack of physicality / hand-checking he faced in his era. 

If you give Jordan that boost, then the guys you look back at as 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th best of those teams (and everyone else)... would have their offensive numbers inflated to some degree as well.   Might that also change how we retrospectively evaluate those guys?

[mweb08]

Of course those teams and their best players would be looked at more favorably if they won. The Rockets team is an example of that, and that was not a great team either.

I completely reject the notion that those teams were championship level teams though when compared to other champions. You can possibly pick out the worst of the champions to support that argument, but that's about it.

In terms of scoring, the league these past two years has finally caught up and surpassed the total scoring we saw in the 80's. Defense also was also much worse in those 80's. So MJ's stats in that decade are probably a pretty good reflection of what he'd do now. Really the only times points were really down during MJ's time was during that 2nd 33-peat, and that was mostly related to pace and a watered down league, not defense.

But it's not surprising that people who played in the 90s or grew up watching the NBA then would cape for that decade.

[BSLChrisStoner]

But it's not surprising that people who played in the 90s or grew up watching the NBA then would cape for that decade.

 

There is definite truth here.. in all sports I have soft-spot for late 80s, through the 90s being that was my childhood and what I grew up watching.  In-terms of styles of play, NFL and NBA wise.... I highly prefer how the games were played then vs. now. 

That said, I still love the games and players of today. 

[mweb08]

There is definite truth here.. in all sports I have soft-spot for late 80s, through the 90s being that was my childhood and what I grew up watching. In-terms of styles of play, NFL and NBA wise.... I highly prefer how the games were played then vs. now.

That said, I still love the games and players of today.

Fair, but the physicality and especially the hand checking are just so overblown by people who look back fondly at the old days.

[SportsGuy]

Most of the great teams of today aren’t that great either.

The NBA is what it always has been...3-5 really good teams and a bunch of nobodies.