Photo

NBA 2019-20 General Talk (Lakers Win The Championship)


  • Please log in to reply
1729 replies to this topic

#1721 mweb08

mweb08

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,044 posts
  • LocationRidgely's Delight

Posted 12 October 2020 - 11:37 AM

There are plenty of stats in Jordan's favor. And some for James.

I think beyond the stats is where people see a difference. Some will see that as made-up mythology.
Maybe to a point? I just see a clear, and yet hard to describe discernable difference.

But simpler than that... James better on the boards, better playmaker for others. Jordan better pure scorer, and defensive player.

James getting deserved credit for a longer career, sustained excellence. But of course Jordan's numbers would be that much better without the retirements.

Overall, comparisons are inevitable when you are talking about the best of the best. It's just part of sports.

But the difficulty in comparing eras is real.


PS: Namath? He's pretty far down the list of all-time QBs.


Jordan and James are pretty equal defensively imo.

As for the retirement line, I really don't get why anyone would use that in favor of Jordan. Those were his decisions and if anything, the first retirement was helpful in recharging his battery for the next run. This isn't Ted Williams fighting in the war here. He gets credit for the time he played, which was relatively short, and that's it.

He can win on peak, but doesn't really come close to LeBron at this point in total career value. So again, it depends on what you want to value.

#1722 mweb08

mweb08

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,044 posts
  • LocationRidgely's Delight

Posted 12 October 2020 - 11:41 AM

Again, feel free to greatly further educate yourself on Russell and the entire GOAT rankings anytime you want by reading this:

https://backpicks.co...in-nba-history/

Like if you actually care about all this, you're doing yourself a disservice by not doing so.

#1723 Mike B

Mike B

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 26,478 posts
  • LocationTowson Md.

Posted 12 October 2020 - 11:57 AM

I think that's an optimistic start date, so for sure could end up later.

Frankly the NBA might be well served making the start of their season mid January, a regular thing.  


@mikeghg

#1724 BSLChrisStoner

BSLChrisStoner

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 132,819 posts

Posted 12 October 2020 - 12:10 PM

Jordan and James are pretty equal defensively imo.

As for the retirement line, I really don't get why anyone would use that in favor of Jordan. Those were his decisions and if anything, the first retirement was helpful in recharging his battery for the next run. This isn't Ted Williams fighting in the war here. He gets credit for the time he played, which was relatively short, and that's it.

He can win on peak, but doesn't really come close to LeBron at this point in total career value. So again, it depends on what you want to value.


There is something to the recharging the batteries... but that's a bit overblown.


He was the best, left, came back and was the best. 

That could be another MVP season, another Finals or 2. 

Would be additional AS appearances. 

Then leaves again...  after the second 3 peat, and he's the league MVP when he walks away.

What would he have been in '99-'01? 
Declining sure, but declining from an MVP level... and he was still 'good' in '01-'02. 

At the minimum, it's 4 more total AS appearances. and probably another (conservatively) 6,000+ points scored. 


  • Mike B likes this

#1725 Pedro Cerrano

Pedro Cerrano

    SportsGuy's Muse

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 31,706 posts
  • LocationEllicott City, MD

Posted 12 October 2020 - 12:58 PM

Ahh another Pedro/Russell argument would be a cherry on top of a great night.


I mean he’s the most overrated player in NBA history. Not much else to say.

There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

"Now OPS sucks.  Got it."

"Making his own olive brine is peak Mackus."

"I'm too hungover to watch a loss." - McNulty

@bopper33


#1726 mweb08

mweb08

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,044 posts
  • LocationRidgely's Delight

Posted 12 October 2020 - 02:14 PM


There is something to the recharging the batteries... but that's a bit overblown.

He was the best, left, came back and was the best.

That could be another MVP season, another Finals or 2.

Would be additional AS appearances.

Then leaves again... after the second 3 peat, and he's the league MVP when he walks away.

What would he have been in '99-'01?
Declining sure, but declining from an MVP level... and he was still 'good' in '01-'02.

At the minimum, it's 4 more total AS appearances. and probably another (conservatively) 6,000+ points scored.


Well the most competitive guy quit in the middle of his prime seemingly in large part due to his battery running low.

People can spin the reasoning anyway they want, but again, there's no reason to give him extra credit because he chose not to play.

And regarding that 2nd 3 peat, obviously he and the Bulls deserve a ton of props for that, but it should be mentioned that the league was really down then.

#1727 BSLChrisStoner

BSLChrisStoner

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 132,819 posts

Posted 12 October 2020 - 02:38 PM

Well the most competitive guy quit in the middle of his prime seemingly in large part due to his battery running low.

People can spin the reasoning anyway they want, but again, there's no reason to give him extra credit because he chose not to play.

And regarding that 2nd 3 peat, obviously he and the Bulls deserve a ton of props for that, but it should be mentioned that the league was really down then.


I mean there is something to the battery argument.  His Dad had been shot and killed. 
He wanted something beyond or different to basketball. Another challenge. 

But I quibble with the idea of extra credit.  LeBron is rightfully getting credit for how long he's be excellent. 
But is there any doubt Jordan isn't productive if he does play in the '93-'94 season, or an All-Star if he played all of the '94-'95 season?

Is there any doubt that when he leaves the game playing at a MVP level in '97-'98....  that '98-'99, '99-'00, '00-'01 would have been 3 more productive seasons, when he averages 23.7ppg at age 38 in '01-'02?

Earlier in the Playoffs, you said you'd take this year's Portland team (35-39 this year) over the Utah teams Jordan faced in the Finals.  There is no way to know of course, but I do feel that is disrespectful to those Jazz teams and that era. *

Personally, I think the teams Jordan faced in the Finals... Lakers, Portland, Phoenix, Seattle, Utah 2x - all better than this Miami team (particularly with a hurt Dragic, and not right Bam). 


*To be fair, you did make a decent argument.  Especially if the game is played under the rules of today.  Also, someone from the '60s and '70s can make the same argument to me in reverse, that I should give more credit to those eras for the GOAT argument. 

**Maybe Simmons is right, and it has to be for era only.



#1728 mweb08

mweb08

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,044 posts
  • LocationRidgely's Delight

Posted 12 October 2020 - 03:12 PM

Yes, MJ would have been great during that first retirement. That likely affects how great he is and how much he has left in the tank going into the late 90's, though. And sure, he would have been good after '98 too.

None of that is relevant though to building up his GOAT resume any further. Like logically I just have no clue how anyone can use that in his favor. He quit; that's on him.

This Heat team, even with the injuries is better than that Jazz team imo. But yes, the Lakers had good fortune with those injuries. Both the overall talent level and the quality of the contending teams of this past decade are vastly better than it was in the 90's.

This overrating of the 90's is where Kelly's point about nostalgia really fits in best imo. People roughly our age grew up with that era, so it can be hard for us to see that it wasn't that good. We probably weren't thinking much of the expansion of the era diluting things, great players of the 80's falling off early for various reasons, and many of the up and coming talent disappointing in various ways (literally dying in a few cases). This is why Karl Malone and MJ were still arguably the best players in the late 90's and why a Jazz team that should have been worse than they were a few years prior made it to back to back Finals. They did so through attrition as they took advantage of a mediocre league becoming bad.

#1729 mweb08

mweb08

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,044 posts
  • LocationRidgely's Delight

Posted 12 October 2020 - 04:47 PM

Lowe and Windhorst had a good conversation about this on their last crossover pod.

#1730 mweb08

mweb08

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,044 posts
  • LocationRidgely's Delight

Posted 12 October 2020 - 08:30 PM

It's interesting how we view this in different sports. For instance in baseball, career WAR and the like plus other counting stats are typically paramount in these conversations, but not so much in basketball. LeBron and Kareem would benefit from the baseball approach.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


Our Sponsors


 width=  width=