384 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

Holy God am I sick of hearing about this guy. Just go away.

He hasn't exactly been seeking a ton of attention during these past couple years. Even when he's been in the news, it's not like he's been putting himself out there much. Like for the most part until now or when the settlement occurred, he's just been brought up by others when crappy QB's are playing like those my awful team brought in last year, and when people spread fake news that suggests he doesn't want to play.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

1. Getting sued would involve losing money and (because this is owners we're talking about) being -wrong-. They care about that more. That's why I always talk about contrition/capitulation and all. They want to be -right-, and they want to be told as such. I think they've proved that many times over with other situations. 

 

2. I think you're on an island there. If we're talking strict football ability and saying "does this player help Team X win," the answer for at least 10-15 teams would be unequivocally yes. As Jordan and I noted, the Ravens would be a perfect fit if they acquired him next season. 

 

3. I bring up the waiver because it's relevant to your point, and it's why it's renders it moot. If the NFL happened to do what you said, the NFL would be protected by that waiver. 

I think you are missing a major part of the equation. He may well be able to help a number of teams win. But that is not the only consideration. It is can he help enough to not only be better than some other backup on top of overcoming his baggage. This is a business that relies on fans. And like it or not a bunch of fans do not like his approach to things. Outside baggage is always considered in business decisions and especially a team sport.

[SportsGuy]

This all comes down to one thing...does his talent make the distractions worth it?

There are plenty of people in the league that have or do kneel.

Reid kneels, talks kaep all the time, was in a lawsuit with the NFL and constantly slams them yet he is still in the league.

That’s where the black balled thing gets me.

I don’t know that he is black balled persay...but I do think teams are saying you just aren’t talented enough to deal with all the other stuff.

He is likely to be a back up with a chance to start depending on what team he is on.

His last season was very mediocre and it’s been 3 years since then.

Hunt got a job quickly. Walton is probably done. Why? Talent.

And btw, obviously what Hunt did is way worse than anything Kaep did but that’s not the point. It’s all about how much can you help us win and is that worth whatever off the field distractions it causes?

How many fans do you lose by bringing Kaep to your team? How many do you gain?

It’s all part of the equation. I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as, he kneeled and wore pig socks, so we owners got together in a room and decided that we would never bring him into the league.

That is what some believe. I just don’t see that.

[The Epic]

I think you are missing a major part of the equation. He may well be able to help a number of teams win. But that is not the only consideration. It is can he help enough to not only be better than some other backup on top of overcoming his baggage. This is a business that relies on fans. And like it or not a bunch of fans do not like his approach to things. Outside baggage is always considered in business decisions and especially a team sport.

 

I'm literally replying to you saying, "IF he had the tools and a team signed him and and all bitching by their fans would be wiped out if he helped them win. Winning trumps all."

[ivanbalt]

This all comes down to one thing...does his talent make the distractions worth it?

There are plenty of people in the league that have or do kneel.

Reid kneels, talks kaep all the time, was in a lawsuit with the NFL and constantly slams them yet he is still in the league.

That’s where the black balled thing gets me.

I don’t know that he is black balled persay...but I do think teams are saying you just aren’t talented enough to deal with all the other stuff.

He is likely to be a back up with a chance to start depending on what team he is on.

His last season was very mediocre and it’s been 3 years since then.

Hunt got a job quickly. Walton is probably done. Why? Talent.

And btw, obviously what Hunt did is way worse than anything Kaep did but that’s not the point. It’s all about how much can you help us win and is that worth whatever off the field distractions it causes?

How many fans do you lose by bringing Kaep to your team? How many do you gain?

It’s all part of the equation. I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as, he kneeled and wore pig socks, so we owners got together in a room and decided that we would never bring him into the league.

That is what some believe. I just don’t see that.

 

Not to mention Kap's girlfriend's tweet about Lewis and Bisciotti while the Ravens were considering signing him.  Not exactly going to win over teams like that.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

I'm literally replying to you saying, "IF he had the tools and a team signed him and and all bitching by their fans would be wiped out if he helped them win. Winning trumps all."

Go back and read my point #1 where I specifically stated that it has to overcome his baggage. You just skipped that point and went right to #2.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Go back and read my point #1 where I specifically stated that it has to overcome his baggage. You just skipped that point and went right to #2.

 

So in summary, winning trumps everything, except when it doesn't?

[glenn__davis]

This all comes down to one thing...does his talent make the distractions worth it?

There are plenty of people in the league that have or do kneel.

Reid kneels, talks kaep all the time, was in a lawsuit with the NFL and constantly slams them yet he is still in the league.

 

 

I think there are 2 other issues with Kaepernick specifically:

 

A.  He started it.

B.  I can't speak for everyone, but I know the pig socks were (and are) a big issue to me, for which I don't think he's apologized other than to make some weak comment about how it was only meant to represent "bad" cops.  I can get past the anthem thing and take him at his word on his intentions there, I have a much harder time getting past the socks.  

[The Epic]

So in summary, winning trumps everything, except when it doesn't?

 

Steve, not trying to bust your chops, but that's generally what was implied here by you.

[The Epic]

I think there are 2 other issues with Kaepernick specifically:

 

A.  He started it.

B.  I can't speak for everyone, but I know the pig socks were (and are) a big issue to me, for which I don't think he's apologized other than to make some weak comment about how it was only meant to represent "bad" cops.  I can get past the anthem thing and take him at his word on his intentions there, I have a much harder time getting past the socks.  

 

I thought his clarification was totally fine, to be fair, even though (if you shot him up with truth serum) I bet he's fully ACAB.

 

I'd be surprised if "he thinks cops suck" would be such a strong dealbreaker that someone would stop following a team or the NFL entirely, but I'm not in anybody's head.

 

(Also, if you want to be technical, the media started it.)

[The Epic]

This all comes down to one thing...does his talent make the distractions worth it?

There are plenty of people in the league that have or do kneel.

Reid kneels, talks kaep all the time, was in a lawsuit with the NFL and constantly slams them yet he is still in the league.

That’s where the black balled thing gets me.

I don’t know that he is black balled persay...but I do think teams are saying you just aren’t talented enough to deal with all the other stuff.

He is likely to be a back up with a chance to start depending on what team he is on.

His last season was very mediocre and it’s been 3 years since then.

Hunt got a job quickly. Walton is probably done. Why? Talent.

And btw, obviously what Hunt did is way worse than anything Kaep did but that’s not the point. It’s all about how much can you help us win and is that worth whatever off the field distractions it causes?

How many fans do you lose by bringing Kaep to your team? How many do you gain?

It’s all part of the equation. I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as, he kneeled and wore pig socks, so we owners got together in a room and decided that we would never bring him into the league.

That is what some believe. I just don’t see that.

 

You (the royal you, not YOU you) can't lead me to believe that Reid (who, while he's not the "forefront" of this thing, still has the same beliefs and is far more antagonistic toward the NFL/NFLPA/other players than Kap is)  can be in the league and the world doesn't spin off its axis, but Kap's hiring will. And I think most believe that it won't make a dent. People will be mad, people might say something...then football will be played and people will stop caring. We've heard not one word about Tyreke Hill since the season began. Distractions are only distractions until the game is played. 

 

Also, we'll likely never be able to prove it, but I think a variation of your last few sentences is exactly what happened. Maybe not an owners meeting, but something of the sort.

[SportsGuy]

You (the royal you, not YOU you) can't lead me to believe that Reid (who, while he's not the "forefront" of this thing, still has the same beliefs and is far more antagonistic toward the NFL/NFLPA/other players than Kap is) can be in the league and the world doesn't spin off its axis, but Kap's hiring will. And I think most believe that it won't make a dent. People will be mad, people might say something...then football will be played and people will stop caring. We've heard not one word about Tyreke Hill since the season began. Distractions are only distractions until the game is played.

Also, we'll likely never be able to prove it, but I think a variation of your last few sentences is exactly what happened. Maybe not an owners meeting, but something of the sort.

Why can’t you just believe that his talent isn’t good enough for the distraction?

I get that you want to support Kaep and believe in his cause, etc...but none of that means he is that good and, beyond that, good enough for the distractions.

I also agree it would become a non story after a few weeks or so.

[The Epic]

Why can’t you just believe that his talent isn’t good enough for the distraction?

I get that you want to support Kaep and believe in his cause, etc...but none of that means he is that good and, beyond that, good enough for the distractions.

I also agree it would become a non story after a few weeks or so.

 

Again, because distractions go away when the game is played. And I think that goes for anyone, regardless of cause/crimes/concerns. Players aren't going to not practice or not go to the gym or not improve because of anyone else's views. And I'd say that whether I agreed with him or not.

 

If Kap was Luke Scott reincarnated, I'd say the same thing.

[SportsGuy]

Again, because distractions go away when the game is played. And I think that goes for anyone, regardless of cause/crimes/concerns. Players aren't going to not practice or not go to the gym or not improve because of anyone else's views. And I'd say that whether I agreed with him or not.

If Kap was Luke Scott reincarnated, I'd say the same thing.

They go away...I agree.

Unless you continue to cause issues. Everyone wants to talk about the NFL not being trustworthy.

Kaep isn’t either.

Teams don’t trust that he isn’t going to shut up and not try to make him playing become a platform. They don’t want that.

That’s not blackballing or collusion...it’s common sense.

A guy who you hope never sees the field (which in theory, is the hope for a back up unless it’s a young guy learning before he starts for good) consistently causing issues isn’t something anyone should want.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Steve, not trying to bust your chops, but that's generally what was implied here by you.

 

Let me try it this way:

 

Winning with no baggage >> winning with baggage

 

Winning with baggage is > than losing with no baggage

 

Losing with no baggage is >> losing with baggage

[cprenegade]

This all comes down to one thing...does his talent make the distractions worth it?

There are plenty of people in the league that have or do kneel.

Reid kneels, talks kaep all the time, was in a lawsuit with the NFL and constantly slams them yet he is still in the league.

That’s where the black balled thing gets me.

I don’t know that he is black balled persay...but I do think teams are saying you just aren’t talented enough to deal with all the other stuff.

He is likely to be a back up with a chance to start depending on what team he is on.

His last season was very mediocre and it’s been 3 years since then.

Hunt got a job quickly. Walton is probably done. Why? Talent.

And btw, obviously what Hunt did is way worse than anything Kaep did but that’s not the point. It’s all about how much can you help us win and is that worth whatever off the field distractions it causes?

How many fans do you lose by bringing Kaep to your team? How many do you gain?

It’s all part of the equation. I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as, he kneeled and wore pig socks, so we owners got together in a room and decided that we would never bring him into the league.

That is what some believe. I just don’t see that.

 

This was my contention from the beginning.  I thought the NFL should have defended their case in court.  I thought they had a good chance of winning.  Just because all 32 teams did the same thing doesn't mean they collectively conspired to do so.  It could simply mean the same dynamic existed for each team.  Unless there was some smoking gun that Kapaernick's side had I think it would be pretty hard to prove that the league and all of it's separate entitiesl agreed to keep him out.  It is more likely they settled to prevent some ugly things from coming out about Goodell and/or some of the owners.  

 

Bottom line is that Kapaernick has nobody but himself to blame for not having a job.  He alone made himself the lightning rod for controversy that he is.  It's easy to say that he is better than most of the backups and some of the starters in the league, but his salary demands are likely too much to be considered for a backup in the cap era, and the teams that he would be better than a starter on pretty much suck anyway.  For those teams the better long term plan is probably to suck with a lower end QB until a better one comes along in the draft.  Add to that the PR nightmare and media circus that will accompany him and it's easy to see why everyone has come to the "We'll pass" conclusion.  

 

If he really wants back in, and believes he is still a quality QB, he would be better off going to the CFL and performing so well that he makes it impossible for everyone to ignore him.  

[The Epic]

They go away...I agree.

Unless you continue to cause issues. Everyone wants to talk about the NFL not being trustworthy.

Kaep isn’t either.

Teams don’t trust that he isn’t going to shut up and not try to make him playing become a platform. They don’t want that.

That’s not blackballing or collusion...it’s common sense.

A guy who you hope never sees the field (which in theory, is the hope for a back up unless it’s a young guy learning before he starts for good) consistently causing issues isn’t something anyone should want.

 

I think Eric Reid is a good template for this. Obviously he wasn't "the guy" here, but he's far more outspoken, has continued to kneel, and has played (at worst) ok in his role. He's spoken out against the NFL more than Kap has (we can all admit that Kap, Saturday aside, has been close to radio silent with regard to the NFL for at least the last 24 months). And the world kept spinning. The Panthers haven't folded/lost revenue, and it's pretty much like nothing at all has happened. There is no baggage. He's been suspended, fined, drug tested...the whole nine. The Panthers have crushed teams and gotten slaughtered. And none of Reid's impact feels like more than a blip. 

 

Eric is a starter, and depending on the team, Kap at least won't begin as a starter. But by any measure, I don't see why people wouldn't expect the impact to be the same. 

[BSLChrisStoner]

I think Eric Reid is a good template for this. Obviously he wasn't "the guy" here, but he's far more outspoken, has continued to kneel, and has played (at worst) ok in his role. He's spoken out against the NFL more than Kap has (we can all admit that Kap, Saturday aside, has been close to radio silent with regard to the NFL for at least the last 24 months). And the world kept spinning. The Panthers haven't folded/lost revenue, and it's pretty much like nothing at all has happened. There is no baggage. He's been suspended, fined, drug tested...the whole nine. The Panthers have crushed teams and gotten slaughtered. And none of Reid's impact feels like more than a blip. 

 

Eric is a starter, and depending on the team, Kap at least won't begin as a starter. But by any measure, I don't see why people wouldn't expect the impact to be the same. 

 

Don't think that's a great 1 to 1 given that Eric Reid's name recognition as compared to Kaepernick is low. 

[mweb08]

I just wish we lived in a country where baggage didn't equate to protesting racial inequality. Of course having no reason to protest that would be significantly better.

And I know some will say it wasn't what he was protesting, it was how he went about it. Without getting into a big debate about that, I think it's clear that it's both.

[The Epic]

Don't think that's a great 1 to 1 given that Eric Reid's name recognition as compared to Kaepernick is low. 

 

I agree that it's lower but it's still as good of a test case as you're going to get. As far as a lot of people were concerned, he was a kneeler, and thus he can GFH. The Panthers knew who they acquired, and so did their fans.