129 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

ESPN: LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan: Why the GOAT debate is different now

https://www.espn.com...e-different-now

[Mike B]

I really don't think there is a wrong answer to the GOAT debate.  Is anyone really going to get mad or prove if I think Jordan was the best player of all time, which I do.  If you think it is LBJ then I have no issue with that.

[mweb08]

I really don't think there is a wrong answer to the GOAT debate. Is anyone really going to get mad or prove if I think Jordan was the best player of all time, which I do. If you think it is LBJ then I have no issue with that.

This is a good attitude to have. I think it's quite close between 3 players and I am open to further arguments and analysis related that could sway me in any direction. I still tend to default to Jordan, but the deification of him does admittedly annoy me. Also, like was discussed on The Lowe Post / Hoop Collective pod, I don't think a lot of these MJ people are willing to have a legit conversation or really analyze the issue, so that sucks. Of course there are LeBron fans like that too, but they don't seem to be present here.

[BSLRoseKatz]

It's actually Kareem. Could LeBron or MJ have been as funny as Kareem in Airplane? I don't think so. 

[mweb08]

For those that don't seem to even think it's close, I wonder if there's anything that LeBron could realistically do to become the GOAT in your eyes.

[Mike B]

This is a good attitude to have. I think it's quite close between 3 players and I am open to further arguments and analysis related that could sway me in any direction. I still tend to default to Jordan, but the deification of him does admittedly annoy me. Also, like was discussed on The Lowe Post / Hoop Collective pod, I don't think a lot of these MJ people are willing to have a legit conversation or really analyze the issue, so that sucks. Of course there are LeBron fans like that too, but they don't seem to be present here.

I think it is close and I also think you could add Kareem, BIg O and maybe a few others in the mix.

I will stick with MJ.  I think when ever you start to discuss who was the best at any sport, you are very unlikely to have too much agreement.

[BSLChrisStoner]

For those that don't seem to even think it's close, I wonder if there's anything that LeBron could realistically do to become the GOAT in your eyes.

 

If James wins again next year, it's not going to change my mind.  It will only further cement what I think he is... the 2nd best of all-time, but won't really change any evaluation of him.  

I readily admit that past statistics, longevity, comparisons of eras, arguments of peaks, arguments of best career vs. just best, or irrationally holding the 2011 Finals on James.... it's simply just a feeling that I saw both of them play in their absolute primes, and there is no team sport athlete I'd choose over prime Jordan.  

If someone prefers James... I'm good with that. 

[mweb08]

If James wins again next year, it's not going to change my mind. It will only further cement what I think he is... the 2nd best of all-time, but won't really change any evaluation of him.

I readily admit that past statistics, longevity, comparisons of eras, arguments of peaks, arguments of best career vs. just best, or irrationally holding the 2011 Finals on James.... it's simply just a feeling that I saw both of them play in their absolute primes, and there is no team sport athlete I'd choose over prime Jordan.

If someone prefers James... I'm good with that.

I guess the one thing that sticks out to me as someone that is very close in age to you is that I don't have the same confidence in my assessment of Jordan or any athlete based on watching their primes from like age 6 to 17. Even more so for an athlete that I didn't even watch consistently.

[Mike in STL]

Could LBJ skip the lower levels and jump right up to AA-ball and bat better than .200 and steal 30 bases in a season?

Love to see him try. But I guess that’s not possible. Thanks a lot COVID.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Could LBJ skip the lower levels and jump right up to AA-ball and bat better than .200 and steal 30 bases in a season?

Love to see him try. But I guess that’s not possible. Thanks a lot COVID.

Probably not, but LBJ could go play a variety of NFL positions at a very high level in his prime, IMO. Could Jordan do that?

 

To Weber's question - LeBron could elevate his game and average 50/20/20 the next 5 years with 5 NBA Finals and Season MVP's added to his existing resume, and many of these same people would still not even entertain him being better than Jordan.

[mweb08]

ESPN: LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan: Why the GOAT debate is different now

https://www.espn.com...e-different-now

 

This is a good article.

[mweb08]

To answer my own question since I still lean MJ: for me at some point (and it's arguable it has already happened), the added longevity overcomes the slightly better peak and the 2011 Finals. Longevity of greatness to be more specific, because I don't really care much about added mediocre or worse years in these discussions in any sports. Like cool, a baseball player had an awful year to put them over 3,000 career hits and that is supposed to help their case a lot? Nah.

 

The reason why I think that is because if I were to have the opportunity to have either MJ or LeBron for their whole career, the extra 5 or so elite seasons that put my team in a great position to get that Larry OB is rather important.

 

We'll see how many more he has in him. I have admittedly been a doubter in this respect as I would have thought all the minutes (10,000 + more than MJ) plus the aging would have had a bigger negative impact on him to this point, but he keeps proving me wrong.

[Old Man]

Well Russell wasn't a prolific scorer like all those other guys. He is probably the best defensive player ever, though. Plus, maybe the best leader and teammate ever.

Btw, Shaq was way more skilled than many seem to give him credit for. He had legit moves to go along with incredible agility and athleticism for a man of his size, and he was a very good passing big man.

If you are going to talk best defensive player ever, you got to include Unseld, he played against most of the top centers and held them to lower points than anyother center. Those guys also would tell you what a SOB he was to play against.

 

Not saying Russell wasnt great, either. Hard to pick between those two, at least for me.

[SBTarheel]

Even as a card carrying member of Tar Heel Nation, where MJ is more than a God, I'd take LeBron James every single day of the week. 

 

Not even to mention the off the court stuff. 

 

Fun debate though, no real answer either way. 

[mweb08]

Even as a card carrying member of Tar Heel Nation, where MJ is more than a God, I'd take LeBron James every single day of the week. 

 

Not even to mention the off the court stuff. 

 

Fun debate though, no real answer either way. 

 

Why do you favor LeBron so much?

 

I'm especially interested since puberty was presumably well in your rearview mirror during Jordan's absolute apex, which can't be said for myself and others.

 

Although, apparently I was deficient compared to other  pubescent boys that were great at digesting, analyzing, and remembering what they watched at that time period of their lives. So my bad on that. 

[SBTarheel]

Why do you favor LeBron so much?

 

I'm especially interested since puberty was presumably well in your rearview mirror during Jordan's absolute apex, which can't be said for myself and others.

 

Although, apparently I was deficient compared to other  pubescent boys that were great at digesting, analyzing, and remembering what they watched at that time period of their lives. So my bad on that. 

I'll be 49 this week, so I feel confident in saying that I saw both men's entire career, including becoming a Carolina fan in January of '82, because of Matt doherty, but I digress.Just wanted to remind everyone reading this that my heart is always with Carolina Basketball, no exceptions. 

 

Anyway, to answer your question objectively, I just think I've seen LeBron do things that nobody has done before or likely will do again. It's not a shot at MJ, as obviously he was one of a kind as well. And to have been this great for this long, I mean, we may never see anything like this again! 

 

 

I always go back to the 5 LeBron's vs. 5 Jordan's hypothetical which I think the LeBron's win 75% of the time at least. 

[mweb08]

Good deal.

I tend to agree on the 5 Lebron's vs the 5 Jordan's, but for me that's more of a fun bar debate rather than criteria for the GOAT.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I guess the one thing that sticks out to me as someone that is very close in age to you is that I don't have the same confidence in my assessment of Jordan or any athlete based on watching their primes from like age 6 to 17. Even more so for an athlete that I didn't even watch consistently.

 

I had Jordan vs. Bird on Commodore 64 in '88  

 

I would say that I don't have any memory of Jordan at UNC or much of anything through '88-'89. 

I do remember watching Jordan and the Bulls lose their 7 game series to the Pistons in '89-'90, and then obviously everything after. 

[mweb08]

I had Jordan vs. Bird on Commodore 64 in '88

I would say that I don't have any memory of Jordan at UNC or much of anything through '88-'89.

I do remember watching Jordan and the Bulls lose their 7 game series to the Pistons in '89-'90, and then obviously everything after.

Ah, I didn't account for video games!

Yes, Stoner you have some memory of that, but I'm guessing you weren't yet at near your peak ability to assess what you saw, especially in the early 90's, which is when he was at his apex, I doubt you really watched a high percentage of his games, and I'm guessing your memory of his play isn't incredible. I guess you disagree with that. Also, that's an age where people are more prone to hyperbole and myth building, which can make it difficult to be especially objective later on.

However, based on what I saw at the time, and more important to me, everything I've digested in more recent years such as that excellent GOAT series I keep on referencing, I do side more with you that MJ's peak was better (likely a small margin than you).

[BSLChrisStoner]

Don't disagree with anything there.