129 replies to this topic

[Old Man]

It's actually Kareem. Could LeBron or MJ have been as funny as Kareem in Airplane? I don't think so. 

that was pretty dang funny, too.

[mweb08]

I don't think I talked about Anthony Davis at all, which was a mistake, and he actually ties into this discussion as well.

Not that he's in the GOAT conversation or ever will be, but there will certainly be legacy discussion with him after he retires since he's clearly an elite player and will have at least one title.

He relates to this conversation because just like with LeBron, people will hold his first 7 years against him because he didn't win any titles, and in AD's case, didn't even come close to contending for a championship. Now was that his fault? Nope. Will the vast majority of people agree that it wasn't his fault? Yep. However, they will still hold those years against him. Does that make any sense at all? Nope.

Some may claim that they aren't holding those years against him or against LeBron. However, when a significant portion of their analysis is simply counting rings, then that's exactly what they're doing.

Back to Davis specifically, he's a tremendous player, and he was before this past year as well. Those other amazing years probably won't help out his legacy all that much in the eyes of many while this year is a game changer for how they view AD. As Jeff Van Gundy said while on the broadcast team, AD hasn't really changed, his situation has.

Situation is at the heart of most people's rankings as they can't divorce the player from the situation, and usually don't even seem to try. I prefer to not let the situation dictate my opinion of how good someone is, though. I prefer to not overrate someone because they had an amazing situation or underrated someone who had a poor situation. Of course situation will influence us, and how well guys do in various situations of course do matter, but I think the ideal is to really attempt to give players the proper amount of credit for their efforts and talents.

A player very similar to AD is a great case study for this. Kevin Garnett was arguably as good a player as Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant, but his situation was much worse and therefore his legacy/ranking is perceived to be much worse. The more I think about it, the less I think he belongs third in that grouping, but it's very difficult to arrive at that point due to situation. So I admit it's far from easy, but I wish people would try a little harder with basketball and with quarterbacks. Meanwhile, with baseball, people tend to get past situation much more so when ranking the best ever.

Sorry for the long winded rant for the 2 people who actually read this.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Sorry for the long winded rant for the 2 people who actually read this.

 

Don't apologize for the thoughts. They are appreciated.  And read... even if not always reacted to. 

[mweb08]

RealGM, which is a message board that has high level basketball discussion, just redid their top 100 project, which is a cumulative ranking that they do every 3 years.

LeBron passed MJ for the #1 spot.

https://forums.realg...c.php?t=2007234

[Mike B]

I don't think I talked about Anthony Davis at all, which was a mistake, and he actually ties into this discussion as well.

Not that he's in the GOAT conversation or ever will be, but there will certainly be legacy discussion with him after he retires since he's clearly an elite player and will have at least one title.

He relates to this conversation because just like with LeBron, people will hold his first 7 years against him because he didn't win any titles, and in AD's case, didn't even come close to contending for a championship. Now was that his fault? Nope. Will the vast majority of people agree that it wasn't his fault? Yep. However, they will still hold those years against him. Does that make any sense at all? Nope.

Some may claim that they aren't holding those years against him or against LeBron. However, when a significant portion of their analysis is simply counting rings, then that's exactly what they're doing.

Back to Davis specifically, he's a tremendous player, and he was before this past year as well. Those other amazing years probably won't help out his legacy all that much in the eyes of many while this year is a game changer for how they view AD. As Jeff Van Gundy said while on the broadcast team, AD hasn't really changed, his situation has.

Situation is at the heart of most people's rankings as they can't divorce the player from the situation, and usually don't even seem to try. I prefer to not let the situation dictate my opinion of how good someone is, though. I prefer to not overrate someone because they had an amazing situation or underrated someone who had a poor situation. Of course situation will influence us, and how well guys do in various situations of course do matter, but I think the ideal is to really attempt to give players the proper amount of credit for their efforts and talents.

A player very similar to AD is a great case study for this. Kevin Garnett was arguably as good a player as Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant, but his situation was much worse and therefore his legacy/ranking is perceived to be much worse. The more I think about it, the less I think he belongs third in that grouping, but it's very difficult to arrive at that point due to situation. So I admit it's far from easy, but I wish people would try a little harder with basketball and with quarterbacks. Meanwhile, with baseball, people tend to get past situation much more so when ranking the best ever.

Sorry for the long winded rant for the 2 people who actually read this.

You make a lot of good points.  There is so much that goes into a players worth and ranking.  I think the great part about sports is the debate it brings with it.  I am older than mosty on here and I think about people who do not get mentioned.  Jabbar certainly belongs in the debate of GOAT for basketball as does Oscar Robertson and others, but they fell out of the discussiuon due to age.

I think Jordan is the best I have ever seen, but the difference between him and LBJ is slim.

Your right about players standing.  Garnett and Duncan are close, but KG did not win anywhere near Duncan and lost the post season spotlight.  Charles Barkley was another terrific player but he was always chasing the ring in the post season and not getting one.

[mweb08]

You make a lot of good points. There is so much that goes into a players worth and ranking. I think the great part about sports is the debate it brings with it. I am older than mosty on here and I think about people who do not get mentioned. Jabbar certainly belongs in the debate of GOAT for basketball as does Oscar Robertson and others, but they fell out of the discussiuon due to age.
I think Jordan is the best I have ever seen, but the difference between him and LBJ is slim.
Your right about players standing. Garnett and Duncan are close, but KG did not win anywhere near Duncan and lost the post season spotlight. Charles Barkley was another terrific player but he was always chasing the ring in the post season and not getting one.

I'm much more with you on Kareem (think is top 3 ever) than Oscar.

Charles was certainly great too (below the GOAT convo), but his lack of defense is an issue for me along with the fact that he didn't always stay in the best of shape, which affected him to some degree, especially late in his career.

[Mike B]

I'm much more with you on Kareem (think is top 3 ever) than Oscar.

Charles was certainly great too (below the GOAT convo), but his lack of defense is an issue for me along with the fact that he didn't always stay in the best of shape, which affected him to some degree, especially late in his career.

I grew up on the Baltimore Bullets.  I was lucky to have an uncle who was best friends with the head of security at the then Baltimore Civic Center.  As a young kid, I got to see all the Bullet HOF players, 10-15 times a year.  I always chose the Kniks, Wilts team and who ever the Big O played for.  Big O was old school, but dominated a game as much as anyone.   The players of the 70's and I guess before get lost in the best player conversations.

[Mike B]

I'm much more with you on Kareem (think is top 3 ever) than Oscar.

Charles was certainly great too (below the GOAT convo), but his lack of defense is an issue for me along with the fact that he didn't always stay in the best of shape, which affected him to some degree, especially late in his career.

One other thing,  I think people underestimate Kareem, because he was so smooth and made it look so easy.   The one thing, I think I am sure of, is that Kareems sky hook, was the most unstopable shot ever.

FWIW, I could not stand Kareem when he was playing, because he stood in the way of my Baltimore Bullets winning a title.

[mweb08]

I grew up on the Baltimore Bullets. I was lucky to have an uncle who was best friends with the head of security at the then Baltimore Civic Center. As a young kid, I got to see all the Bullet HOF players, 10-15 times a year. I always chose the Kniks, Wilts team and who ever the Big O played for. Big O was old school, but dominated a game as much as anyone. The players of the 70's and I guess before get lost in the best player conversations.

Definitely jealous of those experiences you had!

Yeah, they get overlooked some. Not sure how fair it is or not. Kareem, Russell, and Wilt get talked about a fair amount, though.

[Mike B]

Definitely jealous of those experiences you had!

Yeah, they get overlooked some. Not sure how fair it is or not. Kareem, Russell, and Wilt get talked about a fair amount, though.

The arena was a dump even then but, Unseld, Monroe, Marin, and my favorite Bullet Gus “Honeycomb” Johnson were amazing to watch.  The last year the Big E, Elvin Hayes played in Baltimore,  Some great players.