28 replies to this topic

[SportsGuy]

http://espn.go.com/e...play?id=8270749

Listen at about the 40 second mark.

Its short but gives you a good idea of how bad things were.

[Adam Wolff]

I think it's interesting he talks about chain of command and how players shouldn't be questioning coaches/management, then says Strasburg should basically be defiant about the Nationals desire to shut him down and threaten to ultimately leave for another team. Seems a little contradictory, even though I do agree with his overall point on Strasburg.

[RichardZ]

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8270749

Listen at about the 40 second mark.

Its short but gives you a good idea of how bad things were.

It starts at the top with Angelos. I don't think things are completely fixed in that regard, if at all.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I think Mazzone is right in his anger, about how dysfunctional the O's were. When Showalter was showing interest in the GM position for himself, and was being consulted on the hire - I was still very worried about chain-of-command within the Warehouse.

I think the results since the Duquette hire, show an organization (at-least the Baseball Operations Leadership) that is on the same page. Duquette and Showalter are working very well together, particularly with their use of the end of the O's roster. Read this morning that Romero was the 49th player used this year by the O's.

Of course, it should be mentioned that winning cures a lot, and losing just exacerbates dysfunction.

It would be interesting to hear if in-roads have been made with the Scouting and Player Development Departments.

[Mark Carver]

I think it's interesting he talks about chain of command and how players shouldn't be questioning coaches/management, then says Strasburg should basically be defiant about the Nationals desire to shut him down and threaten to ultimately leave for another team. Seems a little contradictory, even though I do agree with his overall point on Strasburg.

Spot on... Leo it's about chain of command. Why didn't M&M mention that? Don't want to rock the boat, that's why.

[SportsGuy]

It starts at the top with Angelos. I don't think things are completely fixed in that regard, if at all.

Right...I am not convinced that Angelos isn't still a huge issue.

I do think that the team respects Buck a lot and wouldn't go over his head if there is an issue though.

[Mike B]

I am not surprised. I have long felt the Orioles were a wreck and it started with the owner. In many cases the manager probably never had a chance. The excamples were many. Peter backing Robbie Alomar over Davey, firing Mazzili mid stream. The Ripken/Wren incident. I am sure there was a lot of in fighting with Perlozzo and Mazzone.
Peter has always predered the yes man.

To me that is what is so remarkable about Buck's success. He certainly is not a yes man and he is strong enough to get PGA and the boys to trust him.

[Oriole85]

I'm not disagreeing him with the dysfunction here and this isn't the first time he's taken a shot at the Orioles. He must be resigned to not getting another coaching position at this point since he hasn't been hired to one since he left here despite the credentials he had in Atlanta.

[Oriole85]

It starts at the top with Angelos. I don't think things are completely fixed in that regard, if at all.

They probably aren't and we would be focusing more on this if they were losing. If you are winning, these "problems" are secondary if at all.

[Oriole85]

Of course, it should be mentioned that winning cures a lot, and losing just exacerbates dysfunction.

Couldn't have said it better!

[Mike B]

They probably aren't and we would be focusing more on this if they were losing. If you are winning, these "problems" are secondary if at all.

Winning trumps everything. If the Red Sox were winning, none of this crap that is surfacing would have come to light. They are not and the zoo is open.

[SportsGuy]

They probably aren't and we would be focusing more on this if they were losing. If you are winning, these "problems" are secondary if at all.

Of course, its tough to win when their is the dysfunction.

[Oriole85]

Winning trumps everything. If the Red Sox were winning, none of this crap that is surfacing would have come to light. They are not and the zoo is open.

To that point, many Red Sox players were saying last year that the drinking was worse in past years, you just didn't hear about it because they were winning.

[Oriole85]

I've been saying this for sometime, but I feel like we are babying the young pitchers with pitch counts, innings limits, etc. I've mentioned Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Jim Palmer, etc didn't have pitch counts and all had long and productive careers. I think with the right system in place as Mazzone mentioned, you don't need these artifical barriers.

[Russ]

I've been saying this for sometime, but I feel like we are babying the young pitchers with pitch counts, innings limits, etc. I've mentioned Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Jim Palmer, etc didn't have pitch counts and all had long and productive careers. I think with the right system in place as Mazzone mentioned, you don't need these artifical barriers.

And David Clyde didn't. You hear about these guys because they made it, but you don't hear about the hundreds that flamed out due to arm trouble from a heavy workload.

[Oriole85]

And David Clyde didn't. You hear about these guys because they made it, but you don't hear about the hundreds that flamed out due to arm trouble from a heavy workload.

Yes, you have those cases just like you have the cases of taking every precaution like Strasburg and them still getting injured. Players get injured for various reasons -- some just everyday life like Joba's thing earlier this year.

In David Clyde's case, I think you can blame Bob Short though. A complete publicity stunt to get some $$$.

My point was the system in place worked out pretty well in Atlanta, I don't see why it can't be replicated elsewhere. I believe the Rangers are trying to do similar things under Nolan Ryan.

[Russ]

The Rangers and Nolan Ryan have talked a big game about what they're going to do, but their SP usage is the same as the rest of the league.

[Oriole85]

The Rangers and Nolan Ryan have talked a big game about what they're going to do, but their SP usage is the same as the rest of the league.

Let's see where they are in a few years, saying and doing are two different things I agree. But i'll give them some time to implement their plan.

[SammyBirdland]

Spot on... Leo it's about chain of command. Why didn't M&M mention that? Don't want to rock the boat, that's why.

Yep. ESPN interviews are lollipops and rainbows, with hard-hitting questions like "Is winning fun?" "Do you think you have a good team this year?"

[Mark Carver]

I've been saying this for sometime, but I feel like we are babying the young pitchers with pitch counts, innings limits, etc. I've mentioned Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Jim Palmer, etc didn't have pitch counts and all had long and productive careers. I think with the right system in place as Mazzone mentioned, you don't need these artifical barriers.

I always point to the 1980 Oakland A's lead by Billy Martin. He did everything he could to win and it cost the starting pitchers, cost them in terms of short careers. Rick Langford (age 28) , Mike Norris (age 25) , Matt Keough (age 24) , Steve McCatty (age 26) and Brian Kingman (age 25) had 93 complete games in 159 starts. Follow their careers and 4 are effectively done within 3 years and Rick Langford was effectively done within 4 years.

Under Billy Martin, the 5 had -

1980 - 159 GS 93 CG
1981 - 109 GS 59 CG (note this was the strike shorten season and only played 109 games)
1982 - 133 GS 37 CG

With Billy Martin gone, the 5 had -

1983 - 51 GS 5 CG
1984 - 32 GS 4 CG

I would like to see what Leo Mazzone has to say with the way Billy Martin handled the early 1980 A's starting pitching. I'm not too sure that putting some barriers on pitchers is not a good thing.

http://www.baseball-.../OAK/1980.shtml