37 replies to this topic

[SBTarheel]

Where's Seth to take up for Roy?


Gotta disagree with you there. Gary was UNDERRATED as an actual in-game coach, while he was overrated as an overall program manager, so to speak. He didn't care about recruiting, and that cost he and the program a lot of potential wins, if not tournament runs. I definitely agree with SG that Turg is underrated.



Classic.

Hi Chris!

Roy's been to what, 7 Final Fours (only coach to lead 2 teams to 3 Final Fours), won 2 National titles. If only I could be that "overrated" at my job...sigh.

I'm only 40, but Gary is in the top 3 in game coaches I've ever seen...Coach Smith & K being #1/2.

[SportsGuy]

Hi Chris!

Roy's been to what, 7 Final Fours (only coach to lead 2 teams to 3 Final Fours), won 2 National titles. If only I could be that "overrated" at my job...sigh.

I'm only 40, but Gary is in the top 3 in game coaches I've ever seen...Coach Smith & K being #1/2.

Did you see this?:

http://dukereport.co... ... ith-kline/

[SBTarheel]

Did you see this?:

http://dukereport.co... ... ith-kline/

Oddly enough, I didn't see that post on Dukereport..

They're the two best coaches in our lifetimes, and have had tremedous success getting guys to the league...They both deserve every accolade they've received and will continue to receive.

[bnickle]

You are all wrong, Gary was overrated as an in game coach as well. All I ever hear is how brilliant Gary was as an in game coach. BS, he got blown out of multiple NCAA tournies when he should have got further because of poor coaching. He was likely to get outcoached by freaking Mike Jarvis or Steve Lavin as he was to outcoach Ratface. What he was best at was transferring that chip he had on his shoulder and giving his players great chances to knock off top teir teams on a given night. They often battled superior opponents down to the wire and pulled a number of big upsets. The problem was consistency as his teams were just as likely to play down to inferior teams and be upset. People get lost in the brilliant moments and forget about the stinkers and general inconsistency.

Don't make me go over how many times his stubbornness hurt his teams.

[SportsGuy]

You are all wrong, Gary was overrated as an in game coach as well. All I ever hear is how brilliant Gary was as an in game coach. BS, he got blown out of multiple NCAA tournies when he should have got further because of poor coaching. He was likely to get outcoached by freaking Mike Jarvis or Steve Lavin as he was to outcoach Ratface. What he was best at was transferring that chip he had on his shoulder and giving his players great chances to knock off top teir teams on a given night. They often battled superior opponents down to the wire and pulled a number of big upsets. The problem was consistency as his teams were just as likely to play down to inferior teams and be upset. People get lost in the brilliant moments and forget about the stinkers and general inconsistency.

Don't make me go over how many times his stubbornness hurt his teams.

You arent going to be great every game...K gets outcoached at times do.

But yes, everyone else(experts included) are wrong and you are right...He was a poor in game coach.

[bnickle]

You arent going to be great every game...K gets outcoached at times do.

But yes, everyone else(experts included) are wrong and you are right...He was a poor in game coach.

I didn't say he was poor, I said he was overrated. People threw brilliant and great around way too much when describing his strategy and in game coaching ability. I watched or listened to almost every game he coached from '93 on and remember a lot of them very well from memory. So, yeah I consider myself more than qualified to educate people on his merits as an in game coach.

[SportsGuy]

I didn't say he was poor, I said he was overrated. People threw brilliant and great around way too much when describing his strategy and in game coaching ability. I watched or listened to almost every game he coached from '93 on and remember a lot of them very well from memory. So, yeah I consider myself more than qualified to educate people on his merits as an in game coach.

Ok..you can consider yourself that and that's fine.

You are just wrong.

In fact, I never felt Gary got enough credit for how good he was as an in game coach. I know a lot of guys like Vitale and Bilas would talk about him but for the most part, he was never mentioned with the top guys, so I am not even sure how he can be considered overrated when he wasn't really rated that much to begin with.

There probably wasn't a coach in the country that got more out of so little the way Gary did.

And btw, you aren't a biased person in this conversation, so your opinion on the matter certainly isn't one to take as seriously as someone who doesn't really care one way or another or some of the guys, like a Jay Bilas.

[bnickle]

Maybe he wasn't overrated nationally, he was overrated in Maryland and apparently by most of the fans of other ACC teams on this board.


Let it go, I'll kill you on this subject.

[SportsGuy]

Maybe he wasn't overrated nationally, he was overrated in Maryland and apparently by most of the fans of other ACC teams on this board.


Let it go, I'll kill you on this subject.

You know, for someone who always says I have an ego, your attitude on this board wouldn't let you fit your head through the door...so you may want to consider that the next time you try to come at me.

Secondly, as I said, I don't really respect your opinion on this because of all the whining you have done about Gary over the years. Just as if Stoner(who is more knowledgable than you) were to come on here and call Gary the GOAT, because he loves the man so much...that opinion would only be able to be taken so seriously because of how much Chris admires GW.

However, when someone like Bilas(who has forgotten more about bball than you will ever know) believes Gary was a great in game coach, that says a lot to me.

I also believe it from my time watching him, although I obviously didn't watch as intently as you and others have because I am not a MD fan.

All of that being said, I am sure there are MD fans that overrated Gary too much. I remember some saying he was better than K for example..that's absurd IMO. So sure, if you want to talk about irrational fans who know very little, then I guess you can say some overrated him.

But in reality world, he was never really talked about much..and that is why he was underrated, as an in game coach.(recruiting is a different topic and perhaps, lack of talent is why he didn't win some of the games you talked about, not his coaching)

[bnickle]

I'll ask this of any Terps BBall fans, even ones who loved Gary like Chris and Mackus. Were there not just as many seasons where Gary's teams underachieved as there were seasons where they overachieved??? Were there not as many times where they played down to inferior teams and lost as there were times they knocked off top ranked teams as an underdog??

[SportsGuy]

I'll ask this of any Terps BBall fans, even ones who loved Gary like Chris and Mackus. Were there not just as many seasons where Gary's teams underachieved as there were seasons where they overachieved??? Were there not as many times where they played down to inferior teams and lost as there were times they knocked off top ranked teams as an underdog??

I guarantee you that every coach, in every sport, can have these types of things said about them.

But you blow it up in your own mind because of your dislike for Gary..either that or you don't pay attention to everyone else.

[bnickle]

You know, for someone who always says I have an ego, your attitude on this board wouldn't let you fit your head through the door...so you may want to consider that the next time you try to come at me.

Secondly, as I said, I don't really respect your opinion on this because of all the whining you have done about Gary over the years. Just as if Stoner(who is more knowledgable than you) were to come on here and call Gary the GOAT, because he loves the man so much...that opinion would only be able to be taken so seriously because of how much Chris admires GW.

However, when someone like Bilas(who has forgotten more about bball than you will ever know) believes Gary was a great in game coach, that says a lot to me.

I also believe it from my time watching him, although I obviously didn't watch as intently as you and others have because I am not a MD fan.

All of that being said, I am sure there are MD fans that overrated Gary too much. I remember some saying he was better than K for example..that's absurd IMO. So sure, if you want to talk about irrational fans who know very little, then I guess you can say some overrated him.

But in reality world, he was never really talked about much..and that is why he was underrated, as an in game coach.(recruiting is a different topic and perhaps, lack of talent is why he didn't win some of the games you talked about, not his coaching)

LOL, I respect Stoner as much as anyone on the subject of MD basketball over the last 20 years but I wouldn't back down to him either. He isn't "more knowledgeable "than me. And don't even get me started on Bilas. He is really good but it's his job to generally praise coaches and to be quite frank when it comes to Gary's tenure here and overall resume of games I have watched more and know more. There are things I could bring up from the mid to late 90s that I know he would not be able to discuss in detail with me.

[bnickle]

I guarantee you that every coach, in every sport, can have these types of things said about them.

But you blow it up in your own mind because of your dislike for Gary..either that or you don't pay attention to everyone else.

To an extent, but too much Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde under Gary. Also, Gary had a knack for setting the bar low. A brilliant coach doesn't have as mediocre and inconsistent teams as Gary did. And I'm not a Gary hater, I'm a Gary realist. He was a good coach, not great one, who did a lot of good things for the program. He put MD back on the map but I fully expect Turg to take it to the next level. And some I'm sure will argue you can't do better than a National Championship and I understand that argument. Turg may never win a NC but I think he'll be more consistent. He'll have more legit, top 10 championship contending teams than Gary.

[Mackus]

I'll ask this of any Terps BBall fans, even ones who loved Gary like Chris and Mackus. Were there not just as many seasons where Gary's teams underachieved as there were seasons where they overachieved??? Were there not as many times where they played down to inferior teams and lost as there were times they knocked off top ranked teams as an underdog??

I've only casually followed this, but I'll respond.

While there certainly were seasons where Gary's teams underachieved, I think there were more where they overachieved or met high expectations.

During the long streak of making the tournaments, there were only a couple teams that I felt got underachieved and/or got knocked out way too early. The team after Smith left should have been better (lost to Nash and Santa Clara in the 1st round after a mediocre season). The next year they played better but still lost in the 1st round (in an awful matchup agianst Coll. of Charleston who was the #12 seed but ranked in the top-25 actually ahead of Maryland IIRC). The Francis team lost a round or two early in the Sweet 16 to Artest and St. Johns but they had a really good season, just peaked too early. The next year the team met regular season expectations buy obviously crapped the bed in that blowout against UCLA. The next two years were obvious major successes, with the Final 4 run and the title. The year after was also a success, IMO, nearly making it to the Elite 8 after losing Dixon, Baxter, Wilcox, and Mouton. The first two NIT teams were major disappointments, but had some odd factors (Gilchrist losing his mind, McCray failing out). From that point on, only one team really was a great success story, Vasquez' senior year but that ended a bit prematurely with that crazy game against MSU.

I think it's really hard to say if a guy is underrated or overrated because first you have to agree on a consensus of how the guy is rated in the first place. I don't think that consensus exists for Gary. I agree that the team didn't achieve the heights that I thought they should have following the Championship. But I also think that winning a Championship and getting to two Final Fours was a pretty big overachievement compared to where the program was when Gary took over, and even really in it's history.

[Oriole85]

Maybe he wasn't overrated nationally, he was overrated in Maryland and apparently by most of the fans of other ACC teams on this board.


Let it go, I'll kill you on this subject.

I'd say he was potentially "overvalued." (and I usually reserve that word for players not coaches) He was a long-time staple, really an institution, at Maryland and this was the only basketball coach I knew until Turgeon took over. It's the kind of thing that happens when you get so exposed to a certain program.

[Oriole85]

To an extent, but too much Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde under Gary. Also, Gary had a knack for setting the bar low. A brilliant coach doesn't have as mediocre and inconsistent teams as Gary did. And I'm not a Gary hater, I'm a Gary realist. He was a good coach, not great one, who did a lot of good things for the program. He put MD back on the map but I fully expect Turg to take it to the next level. And some I'm sure will argue you can't do better than a National Championship and I understand that argument. Turg may never win a NC but I think he'll be more consistent. He'll have more legit, top 10 championship contending teams than Gary.

So I take it you see Turgeon going deeper in the tournament consistently, Sweet 16's/Elite 8's? More Final Four/national championships as well?

[Oriole85]

Gotcha. 

 

He's doing wonders at SMU..can't really deny that.

I agree there, just think top 25 is too high since he still hasn't made the Tourney. If you want to go with his entire career, he's easily top 10, maybe top 5.

[Oriole85]

18-11

 

No. 18: Steve Fisher, San Diego State
No. 17: Mark Few, Gonzaga
No. 16: Roy Williams, North Carolina
No. 15: Fred Hoiberg, Iowa State
No. 14: Tony Bennett, Virginia
No. 13: Shaka Smart, VCU
No. 12: Jim Boeheim, Syracuse
No. 11: Sean Miller, Arizona