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Are O's better off with $ than led on?


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#21 Mackus

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 09:51 AM

My take:

http://warehousewort...on-angelos.html

You lost me with the title.

Angelos isn't the only reason this organization has struggled. If we had better decision-makers and instructors, even with Angelos' poison destroying the organization from within we still could have stumbled to the occasional +.500 record and maybe even a playoff berth over the years. But, the overwhelmingly biggest factor in the teams ineptitude is Peter Angelos. It's not just him refusing to put the new revenue streams back into the team (any analysis must take into consideration the extremely great deal he got when the Nat's moved into town and the new revenue from MASN and his guaranteed sales price), it's him meddling in minor details, it's him refusing to allow GMs control to remove his cronies from powerful positions, it's him strolling into the draft room and dictating the level and position of the player they will select minutes from the start of the draft. There are countless examples of his poor qualities as an owner, and most of all just look at the track record.

It's not just "fair" to blame it on Angelos. It's "true" to blame it on Angelos. There have been other people throughout the organization who have made some mistakes, but everything comes back to Peter.

I'll be thrilled when he's no longer the owner and it can't happen soon enough for my liking. I hope that comes when he sells and not when he dies, but that's up to him.

#22 Oriole85

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:00 AM

Rob,
I agree he's the biggest issue as he's been the constant through the years as well as the guy at the top. I've said this before wanting him gone is like wanting your boss gone, you can complain all you want but little can be done. In terms of LaCava and others, I think it was the perception that drew all of those GM candidates away. And yes, I believe that in LaCava's case, it was the lack of assurances to hire his own people and get rid of the dead weight. I criticized Angelos for not getting rid of his cronies. All that being said, so far, so good on Duquette, let's hope he can keep this up. I don't care if he was the 10th choice or whatever if he gets the job done.

Yes, Tampa does put money in areas we don't. But there's no reason to think we can't do that. They have even less revenue than we do. It's not like the Yankees where we can't beat them for the top FA's because of our record and resources.

In terms of spending money on a winner, many aren't too happy about being priced out with the Caps because they can charge what they want.
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#23 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:02 AM

Pete's questions:

1) Do you think the O's could support a salary of $105-$110M?

1a) If yes, do you think the O's may consider doing so?
1b) If no, why do you feel the O's are not capable of doing so? Do you think those reasons are justified?

2) With how the O's are currently built, Pete believes there is no reason or excuse why the O's should not be competitive with teams like LAA, Chicago, Miami, Texas, or Philadelphia with regards to going after top FA's. That if there are legitimate options to address glaring holes, which could take an 85 win team to a WS contender, there should be no restrictions on spending. Do you agree?

3) Are you okay with the operating as though they are a mid-market team in MLB?


1) Yes, I think they probably could, but that is just conjecture.

1a) I think the rest of the 2012 season will determine the O's course in the off-season. If the O's internally feel they are close, I could buy the argument that there would be an increasing % chance of them being more aggressive via FA's, if they feel there are FA's who could put them over-the-top. However, based on their comments regarding FA since Duquette was hired, the unwillingness to cut Gregg, etc.; I think that while the odds might be 'higher' they would still be very low.

1b) I think the O's would be plenty justified with not spending towards their limits. There are multiple ways to build a team and an organization. If the O's want to allocate increasing dollars to the internal infrastructure, and away from the ML payroll, I could support that. If they just want to operate at a lower salary, and pocket additional salary, that does not necessarily bother me either. As long as Duquette knows exactly what he can spend, and is allowed to build the roster accordingly.

2) If the O's believe there is an elite FA they want to pursue, I just want to see them aggressive in their pursuit. I'm not necessarily talking about just the dollars offered, but the pursuit itself. I think there are plenty of reasons why the O's may not be able to be competitive with those teams. LAA has been a model team for years, Moreno has major pockets, LA is the 2nd largest market, with a team already littered with stars. The Cubs have limited payroll on the books the next few years, are the 3rd largest market, and will spend like it subsequent years with Theo. The Marlins and Rangers do not have to worry about State tax. Philadelphia has started to experience some of the results of spending wildly, but I could see them attempting to do so again this Winter, trying to give their existing starting pitchers one more chance.

Where I sort of agree with Pete is that with how the O's are currently built, glaring holes should be addressed. If the O's end this year winning around 85 games, the focus has to be on improving the roster to the point you go into the Spring expecting to contend. Where I disagree with Pete, is that I don't believe roster improvement has to be limited to top/elite FA's. Even if you are willing to spend to obtain elite FA's, you still might not land those players. They may not want to come, or it just might take more than you are willing to spend. If you don't get those elite FA's, you have to have another plan in-place to improve.

If the O's made zero attempt on Hamilton and Greinke, I'm not going to care about that if they still improve the roster.

3) Aside from hopefully being able to retain their own players when it makes sense to do so, I don't care how the O's spend. Again, I believe there are multiple ways to build a team. To me, you judge a team based on wins/losses, and what is being developed. By that measure, the O's were a complete failure during '98-'11. Through today, there has been improvement here in 2012. The O's are on the positive side of .500, and there is a solid core of talent existing on the roster, and coming soon from within. I'll judge the off-season by what the O's do to augment that core, not by how much they spend. If the spend like a mid-market team, that is fine - they still have to improve the collective talent.

#24 Oriole85

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:05 AM

No, I'm criticizing him for not being there because he has absolutely no clue what he is doing and him not being there and being around the everyday stuff, just adds to his ineptitude.

If he doesn't want to be around, fine..no problem with that.

Then hire the best people possible and get the hell out of the way and let them do their jobs..He doesn't do that.

He isn't ever around and he still thinks he knows what's best. He is wrong.

He is a great guy in the community..He has built an outstanding law practice. He isn't stupid by any means.

But he has absolutely no idea how to run a baseball team...and he thinks he does.

Do you have any recent example of where he intervened (other than LaCava) since you say he's never around but thinks he knows what he's doing?

I sort of get what you are saying now, that you think he makes decisions from far away without knowing what is going on.

I agree completely with your second-to-last sentence. He's a self-made billionaire, obviously he didn't get there by being stupid.
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#25 SportsGuy

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:13 AM

I agree he's the biggest issue as he's been the constant through the years as well as the guy at the top. I've said this before wanting him gone is like wanting your boss gone, you can complain all you want but little can be done. In terms of LaCava and others, I think it was the perception that drew all of those GM candidates away. And yes, I believe that in LaCava's case, it was the lack of assurances to hire his own people and get rid of the dead weight. I criticized Angelos for not getting rid of his cronies. All that being said, so far, so good on Duquette, let's hope he can keep this up. I don't care if he was the 10th choice or whatever if he gets the job done

Huh? we just had a trading deadline where we didn't make moves because of money. We also haven't seen big spending on Int'l talent, despite DD wanting to do that. That is all directly at PAs feet.

Yes, Tampa does put money in areas we don't. But there's no reason to think we can't do that. They have even less revenue than we do. It's not like the Yankees where we can't beat them for the top FA's because of our record and resources.

Yes there is...Peter Angelos. You may think that's short sighted but you would be wrong...Do you know how I know you would be wrong? Because in all of his years as the owner, he hasn't spent his money that way. We will never be able to build like Tampa because we don't have an owner that will allow his organization to be run that way. On top of that, this organization has been riding the fence of trying to contend or rebuild for years. Do you think that every GM has wanted that? And if so, whose fault is that for hiring those people? We don't make trades because PA doesn't want to lose fan favorites, so we can't even build that way either.

In terms of spending money on a winner, many aren't too happy about being priced out with the Caps because they can charge what they want.

Hockey tickets are a lot more expensive...they have half the games to sell than MLB does. On top of that, the Orioles ticket prices aren't even bad, so if they had to increase them some, they would still be reasonable.

#26 Oriole85

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:23 AM

I'm giving Duquette credit for what he did in the offseason with Chen/Hammel/Miguel Gonzalez/Ayala/etc, who've turned out to be valuable contributors. So we didn't do anything at the deadline, wasn't everyone afraid they were going to do something "stupid?" I'm judging him on W's/L's and being seven games over 500, he gets credit along with Buck and the rest of the front office/coaching staff, but most importantly the players. I'm also not going to hold what PA/past GMs have done against him.

It might be a philosophical difference with Angelos in terms of doing the Tampa Bay model, but what I'm saying is we have the means to do it. That's all, I'm not saying they actually wil do it.

Hockey fans on this board will know this better than me, but in recent years I believe Caps tickets have increased exponentially and have become unaffordable to many. Many have been crying about $1-3 day-of-game charges. FTR, I wish they didn't have them. But it's the least of the Orioles problems. I agree the Orioles prices aren't bad at all, it's a very affordable form of entertainment.
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#27 SportsGuy

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:28 AM

I'm giving Duquette credit for what he did in the offseason with Chen/Hammel/Miguel Gonzalez/Ayala/etc, who've turned out to be valuable contributors. So we didn't do anything at the deadline, wasn't everyone afraid they were going to do something "stupid?" I'm judging him on W's/L's and being seven games over 500, he gets credit along with Buck and the rest of the front office/coaching staff, but most importantly the players. I'm also not going to hold what PA/past GMs have done against him.

Then don't ask for recent examples of PA meddling. You either want examples or you don't.

It might be a philosophical difference with Angelos in terms of doing the Tampa Bay model, but what I'm saying is we have the means to do it. That's all, I'm not saying they actually wil do it.

Who cares if we have the money to do it? What does that even mean? You said there is no reason we can't build like TB..Yes there is...Its PA. Its irrelevant that he has the money to do it.

#28 Oriole85

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:31 AM

My bad Rob, were talking about two different things. I was talking about Duquette success so far which I thought you were disagreeing with and you were talking about PA's meddling. Please accept my apologies. I appreciate you giving me an example in retrospect.
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#29 SportsGuy

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:35 AM

My bad Rob, were talking about two different things. I was talking about Duquette success so far which I thought you were disagreeing with and you were talking about PA's meddling. Please accept my apologies. I appreciate you giving me an example in retrospect.

No problem.

As for DD. The Hammel trade was a great one. He made a huge difference with this team before he got hurt. The Chen signing has had almost the same impact

That being said, the eveland, TT and Thome trades were poor and he didn't address obvious holes at the deadline. I am sure PA had a lot to do that in some deals but I am not sure I believe he did in the Headley deal(not a lot of money involved there, PA probably doesn't know much about the players involved outside of maybe Arrieta and BMat).

The Korean pitcher fiasco was also horrible.

End of the day, the jury is still out on DD. He has done some positive and some negative things and some things that he would like to do, he can't...because his owner is the worst in sports.

#30 Oriole85

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:46 AM

No problem.

As for DD. The Hammel trade was a great one. He made a huge difference with this team before he got hurt. The Chen signing has had almost the same impact

That being said, the eveland, TT and Thome trades were poor and he didn't address obvious holes at the deadline. I am sure PA had a lot to do that in some deals but I am not sure I believe he did in the Headley deal(not a lot of money involved there, PA probably doesn't know much about the players involved outside of maybe Arrieta and BMat).

The Korean pitcher fiasco was also horrible.

End of the day, the jury is still out on DD. He has done some positive and some negative things and some things that he would like to do, he can't...because his owner is the worst in sports.

Redskins fans might take exception with the "worst owner" in sports comments. I agree DD's made some mistakes especially the Korean thing. Fair or unfair, he's going to be judged on wins/losses. If they were 40-60, even if those players had been performing, I wouldn't hold him in the same regard as I do right now.

I take it from your comments you wanted to do more at the trade deadline than most? I got no problem with it and I for one, would've liked to see some moves myself. That being said, I have little problem that we didn't do anything.

The book on DD is far from finished.
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#31 JeffLong

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:42 AM

Pete's questions:

1) Do you think the O's could support a salary of $105-$110M?

1a) If yes, do you think the O's may consider doing so?
1b) If no, why do you feel the O's are not capable of doing so? Do you think those reasons are justified?

2) With how the O's are currently built, Pete believes there is no reason or excuse why the O's should not be competitive with teams like LAA, Chicago, Miami, Texas, or Philadelphia with regards to going after top FA's. That if there are legitimate options to address glaring holes, which could take an 85 win team to a WS contender, there should be no restrictions on spending. Do you agree?

3) Are you okay with the operating as though they are a mid-market team in MLB?



1. Yes. As long as the fans decide to support the team again. Half filled ballparks only drive so much revenue.

1A. I do. I think that given a chance to make the playoffs, management will do what is necessary to get there. Remember, that's only $20 Million more than this year's payroll so it's not really that much of a stretch.

2. Yes/No. I don't want them taking on contracts for the sake of getting to the WS if they are toxic in nature (e.g. Ryan Howard). It's all about value & smart spending, not just spending for the sake of it.

3. Yes. We are a mid-market team. Let's act like it.
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#32 Mackus

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:51 AM

Pete's questions:

1) Do you think the O's could support a salary of $105-$110M?

1a) If yes, do you think the O's may consider doing so?
1b) If no, why do you feel the O's are not capable of doing so? Do you think those reasons are justified?

2) With how the O's are currently built, Pete believes there is no reason or excuse why the O's should not be competitive with teams like LAA, Chicago, Miami, Texas, or Philadelphia with regards to going after top FA's. That if there are legitimate options to address glaring holes, which could take an 85 win team to a WS contender, there should be no restrictions on spending. Do you agree?

3) Are you okay with the operating as though they are a mid-market team in MLB?

1) Yes
1b) Not next season

2) Yes, we should be able to go after a high priced FA if a guy we like a lot becomes available

3) Maybe. I think we're one of the fringe teams between mid-market and large-market. I wouldn't expect the Orioles to be in the top-5 in payroll, but I don't think we are limited to the 13-20th range, either.

#33 Oriole85

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:40 PM

Pete's questions:

1) Do you think the O's could support a salary of $105-$110M?

1a) If yes, do you think the O's may consider doing so?
1b) If no, why do you feel the O's are not capable of doing so? Do you think those reasons are justified?

2) With how the O's are currently built, Pete believes there is no reason or excuse why the O's should not be competitive with teams like LAA, Chicago, Miami, Texas, or Philadelphia with regards to going after top FA's. That if there are legitimate options to address glaring holes, which could take an 85 win team to a WS contender, there should be no restrictions on spending. Do you agree?

3) Are you okay with the operating as though they are a mid-market team in MLB?

1)Yes

1a)Yes, maybe not next year, but eventually if things go to plan -- I see esclating players salaries from the current team and taking on FA contracts. Again it's a chicken and egg thing. I'm not expecting payroll to drastically jump overnight. Even throwing gobs of $$$ isn't going to get FAs to come here, you need to win as well.

2)I already answered this but I don't think we can just compete with these teams right now. We have to pay the "suck tax," should we be making competitive offers with elite FAs absolutely, should we be writing blank checks absolutely not. It's also shortsighted to think just spending lots of $$$ is going to get us to the "next level." We aren't on a level playing field with most of those clubs especially being in the AL East, everything being equal, most of those clubs(not sure why Miami is there) will beat us for those key FAs.

3)I'm fine with operating as a mid-market club. In fact, we pretty much are as MLB as defined us. Everyone hates that label I know, but just look at the AL East, we aren't big market to say the least. Bottomline is win, it doesn't matter how we do it.
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#34 SportsGuy

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:43 PM

I feel a 100-110 million payroll is very doable right now.

Attendance goes up and we start pushing 3 million fans again and I think 130-150 is reasonable.

#35 Oriole85

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:52 PM

I feel a 100-110 million payroll is very doable right now.

Attendance goes up and we start pushing 3 million fans again and I think 130-150 is reasonable.


Who do you think we should get to get in that range?
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#36 SportsGuy

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:55 PM

Who do you think we should get to get in that range?

I would trade for Headley for sure.

I dont think I would spend the huge money on Greinke as much as I would like him. I would go after Anibal Sanchez who will give you 75-80% of Greinke IMO for half the cost.

I look into trading for Justin Upton if available.

Hamilton would be on my radar, as would BJ Upton.

Just to name a few.

I would trade Hardy and Johnson as well.

#37 Mackus

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:57 PM

I feel a 100-110 million payroll is very doable right now.

Attendance goes up and we start pushing 3 million fans again and I think 130-150 is reasonable.

I think we'd have to know a little bit more about the exact MASN revenues to really know this for sure. I suspect that we could afford a payroll much higher than we currently sustain, though.

And if we keep winning, the fans should come back. Improving from last year's ~1.75M fans to even just 2.5M would get the team an additional $15M in revenue (if the average ticket is $20).

I don't know if $130-150M is a reasonable figure for something sustainable over a long time, but I do think we should be able to approach that number for a few years and then ramp back down for a few. Sort of like what the Angels or Phillies or Tigers do.

#38 PD24

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 08:04 PM

Well, Peter Angelos gets $3+ a month from every single person that has a cable service that offers MASN...

I'd say he's making quite a bit of MASN money...
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#39 DJ MC

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 08:23 PM

Well, Peter Angelos gets $3+ a month from every single person that has a cable service that offers MASN...

I'd say he's making quite a bit of MASN money...

How much do you think MASN makes from those subscriber fees?

#40 Oriole85

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 08:24 PM

Well, Peter Angelos gets $3+ a month from every single person that has a cable service that offers MASN...

I'd say he's making quite a bit of MASN money...

I'm just curious I've seen different numbers thrown around, do you have a link? Also, does the $3 go to MASN or to him personally? He owns 85% of MASN now? So if it's $3 that's MASN yet then he gets 85% of that in theory. But I think before he gets to profit, the $3/month covers expenses, unless advertising gets all that.

What I'm trying to say can anyone say with any real certainty not just speculation what his profit is? I'd love to know how much he's making between MASN/Orioles in terms of a profit.

He's not opening up his books, nor should he as a private citizen, not running for public office.
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