HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 10:52 AM
I don't think it's fair to compare hurdles and the long jump to being great at other strokes. Being proficient in the multiple strokes seems much more common.
Its not a comparison as much as it is saying that Phelps can do more things in the pool than Bolt can do on the track.
I don't think Bolt is the best track athlete ever, much less the best olympian.
Also I think it is harder to swim than it is to run.
Bolt runs real fast for 10-20 seconds. That is great but to me, that isn't enough.
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 10:56 AM
You think it's 100% that gymnast Latynina would be the equal of Biles?
Hmm, can't agree there.
With Phelps, there isn't judging to contend with in future evaluations. The distances will be the same, his times are what they are.
If his records fall, I'll think he could have competed in future eras... but that becomes just a guess. All I'll feel very comfortable saying is he was the best of his era.
Same thing with Bolt. You aren't going to convince me that if Scholz was transplanted from 1920, that even with the better training of today, he'd be the equal of Bolt. I definitely agree he'd be 'better' though.
Some of this has to do with equipment though.
Remember, they had the one Olympics where swimming records were falling because they said the suits were made faster. I believe they got rid of those suits too.
All sports have equipment differences over the years but in some cases, like say golf, the equipment ,may be better but the courses are also much longer.
The distance of 100 meters in the pool isn't changing but if they come out with some fast suit again, that changes the dynamic.
And of course the athletes of the 20s could be every bit as good. They would be training under current standards, doing current vaults, etc..
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 10:56 AM
Its not a comparison as much as it is saying that Phelps can do more things in the pool than Bolt can do on the track.
I don't think Bolt is the best track athlete ever, much less the best olympian.
Also I think it is harder to swim than it is to run.
Bolt runs real fast for 10-20 seconds. That is great but to me, that isn't enough.
No way. Running just puts so much stress on your body than swimming. The constant pounding and wear and tear from running is far greater. Much harder to be finely tuned and healthy to stay on the track than the pool. Granted I don't follow swimming that much, but how often are they getting hurt from training/competing? My guess is it occurs much less than on the track.
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 10:58 AM
I don't think it's fair to compare hurdles and the long jump to being great at other strokes. Being proficient in the multiple strokes seems much more common.
Its not a comparison as much as it is saying that Phelps can do more things in the pool than Bolt can do on the track.
I don't think Bolt is the best track athlete ever, much less the best olympian.
Also I think it is harder to swim than it is to run.
Bolt runs real fast for 10-20 seconds. That is great but to me, that isn't enough.
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 11:00 AM
No way. Running just puts so much stress on your body than swimming. The constant pounding and wear and tear from running is far greater. Much harder to be finely tuned and healthy to stay on the track than the pool. Granted I don't follow swimming that much, but how often are they getting hurt from training/competing? My guess is it occurs much less than on the track.
I agree about the effects on the body. (athough the endurance for a swimmer is probably much higher)
I guess I meant more of the event in and of itself. Its harder to swim through water. That is giving you resistance.
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 11:01 AM
But it's easier to do more things in the pool. Phelps can swim very fast for 100 to 200 meters while Bolt can sprint very fast for the same distances. There just happens to be more ways to swim those distances.
But there are other ways to run fast too. There are more things he could do.
I do agree with you that looking at strict medal count isn't the best way to do this though.
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 11:03 AM
I guess I meant more of the event in and of itself. Its harder to swim through water. That is giving you resistance.
Seems like an odd way to discuss the two sports.
Fair-weather ex-diehard
Posted 16 August 2016 - 11:03 AM
I can't find it now, but they put up a graphic showing the all-time (!!) medal ranking if Phelps was a country... subtract his medals from the USA's total, and create a new nation, the Republic of Phelps...
All-time total Gold Medals in Swimming (since 1896):
1. USA (130)
2. Australia (30-some, I forget exactly, maybe 34)
3. Phelps (23)
followed by everybody else.
If we look at total Summer Olympics Gold Medals in everything since 1896, the Republic of Phelps ranks 32nd, assuming you remove non-existent former nations (like the Soviet Union and East Germany) and count only the 205 nations who are there in Rio...
If you count everybody, current and former nations, for both Summer and Winter Olympics, then the Republic of Phelps is tied with South Africa for 38th place...
"The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 11:06 AM
Seems like an odd way to discuss the two sports.
Why? If I am comparing the 2 sports, I feel swimming is harder than running (again, the event itself) and the water is a reason why.
Fair-weather ex-diehard
Posted 16 August 2016 - 11:10 AM
Why? If I am comparing the 2 sports, I feel swimming is harder than running (again, the event itself) and the water is a reason why.
But swimming is way easier than racing through pools filled with Jello.... and both of them are way easier than Great Escape Tunnel Digging...
"The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 11:16 AM
Why? If I am comparing the 2 sports, I feel swimming is harder than running (again, the event itself) and the water is a reason why.
Unless you think one sport/event is a sham, and I don't think anybody does, then the medium seems irrelevant. Is hockey harder than basketball? Is Gretzky better than Jordan because of that? I think it's fine to make a case that Gretzky is greater than Jordan, but nobody would claim that "ice is slippy" as part of that argument.
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 11:41 AM
Unless you think one sport/event is a sham, and I don't think anybody does, then the medium seems irrelevant. Is hockey harder than basketball? Is Gretzky better than Jordan because of that? I think it's fine to make a case that Gretzky is greater than Jordan, but nobody would claim that "ice is slippy" as part of that argument.
Fair-weather ex-diehard
Posted 16 August 2016 - 11:44 AM
I think you can absolutely make the case that hockey players are better athletes and many feel that way.
But since you had to nitpick about these things when saying why one is better than the other, one thing for Phelps, IMO, is that his sport is just harder. So, that is part of the argument for him being the better athlete.
Then running hurdles is harder than swimming...
"The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 12:15 PM
But it's easier to do more things in the pool. Phelps can swim very fast for 100 to 200 meters while Bolt can sprint very fast for the same distances. There just happens to be more ways to swim those distances.
But there are other ways to run fast too. There are more things he could do.
I do agree with you that looking at strict medal count isn't the best way to do this though.
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 12:29 PM
What's the average age and the deviation of ages for sprinters compared to the "sprint" distance swimmers?
This is an honest question, not leading into making a point.
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 12:33 PM
I can't find it now, but they put up a graphic showing the all-time (!!) medal ranking if Phelps was a country... subtract his medals from the USA's total, and create a new nation, the Republic of Phelps...
All-time total Gold Medals in Swimming (since 1896):
1. USA (130)
2. Australia (30-some, I forget exactly, maybe 34)
3. Phelps (23)
followed by everybody else.
If we look at total Summer Olympics Gold Medals in everything since 1896, the Republic of Phelps ranks 32nd, assuming you remove non-existent former nations (like the Soviet Union and East Germany) and count only the 205 nations who are there in Rio...
If you count everybody, current and former nations, for both Summer and Winter Olympics, then the Republic of Phelps is tied with South Africa for 38th place...
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 12:38 PM
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 01:00 PM
What about the difference between men's and women's sports? That's similar to the comparison between eras that has been discussed.
If there was a female swimmer with the exact same resume as Phelps in terms of medal count (and even in terms of winning margin if it needs to be that specific) but her times were all 3-5 seconds slower per lap, how would you compare the two?
HOF
Posted 16 August 2016 - 01:13 PM
He could run a longer distance.Not really. There are other ways he can sprint and jump, but not other ways to just sprint.
Owner
Posted 16 August 2016 - 01:15 PM
What about the difference between men's and women's sports? That's similar to the comparison between eras that has been discussed.
If there was a female swimmer with the exact same resume as Phelps in terms of medal count (and even in terms of winning margin if it needs to be that specific) but her times were all 3-5 seconds slower per lap, how would you compare the two?
I'd say she was the best female swimmer of this era, and potentially the best female athlete.
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