48 replies to this topic

[NewMarketSean]

It's going to be really hard for Buck to be on board with letting Adair go if this team finishes with a winning record, and even more difficult if they somehow make the postseason.

Maybe I am overreacting here, but this could evolve into a disaster just as this franchise is on the cusp of success.

[Mackus]

I don't really have an opinion on Adair one way or another. His only failed projects are Matusz and Arrieta. Britton is an injury thing and Hunter is just not that good. If Matusz and Arrieta are on him (and I don't think they are), then he needs to also get credit for helping to turn around Hammel and for aiding Chen in his first season. As well as being involved in getting Tillman and Gonzalez pitching as well as they have.

I don't think replacing the PC will suddenly lead to Matusz and Arrieta being solid #2 starters. That may end up happening, but it has little to do with who the PC is, IMO, and more just on if those guys can figure out a way to have repeatable and maintainable approaches and mechanics.

I wouldn't have a problem if they decide to replace him, wither Peterson or anybody else, though I'd prefer it if Buck approved of the change just to avoid any potential drama and conflict within the clubhouse which could (or might not) negatively impact the team.

A change during the season is obviously preposterous.

[RichardZ]

I don't really have an opinion on Adair one way or another. His only failed projects are Matusz and Arrieta. Britton is an injury thing and Hunter is just not that good. If Matusz and Arrieta are on him (and I don't think they are), then he needs to also get credit for helping to turn around Hammel and for aiding Chen in his first season. As well as being involved in getting Tillman and Gonzalez pitching as well as they have.
I don't think replacing the PC will suddenly lead to Matusz and Arrieta being solid #2 starters. That may end up happening, but it has little to do with who the PC is, IMO, and more just on if those guys can figure out a way to have repeatable and maintainable approaches and mechanics.

I wouldn't have a problem if they decide to replace him, wither Peterson or anybody else, though I'd prefer it if Buck approved of the change just to avoid any potential drama and conflict within the clubhouse which could (or might not) negatively impact the team.

A change during the season is obviously preposterous.

I disagree with the bolded. Chen is a veteran pitcher who pretty much was what he is. Has he improved his breaking pitch and change a little as the season has progressed? Yeah, but he was pretty good to begin with. Hammel had two good seasons in Colorado. Again, pretty much a finished product when he came here. Adair suggested he use his two seamer more. Gonzalez and Tillman both improved velocity and fine tuned mechancis at AAA under Peterson (according to Peterson). I can give Adair a little credit for those 4 guys BUT very little. The young guys regressed under his watch. Might not be his fault but he sure didn't help.

[SportsGuy]

It's going to be really hard for Buck to be on board with letting Adair go if this team finishes with a winning record, and even more difficult if they somehow make the postseason.

Maybe I am overreacting here, but this could evolve into a disaster just as this franchise is on the cusp of success.

I think, at most, this could be a situation where Buck doesn't want to extend.

You can argue if this is an issue or not but I don't think it goes beyond that.

Personally, I doubt it even gets to the point.

[Mackus]

I disagree with the bolded. Chen is a veteran pitcher who pretty much was what he is. Has he improved his breaking pitch and change a little as the season has progressed? Yeah, but he was pretty good to begin with. Hammel had two good seasons in Colorado. Again, pretty much a finished product when he came here. Adair suggested he use his two seamer more. Gonzalez and Tillman both improved velocity and fine tuned mechancis at AAA under Peterson (according to Peterson). I can give Adair a little credit for those 4 guys BUT very little. The young guys regressed under his watch. Might not be his fault but he sure didn't help.

I think in general that PC's get too much credit and too much blame. I don't think Adair is the reason Chen, Hammel, Gonzalez, and Tillman are pitching well, but I also don't think he's the reason Matusz, Arrieta, and others are not.

I'm fine with replacing him. Or with keeping him. Different pitching coaches can help certain guys more than others, for sure, but I don't think over many different pitchers that any one pitching coach can completely change a staff or even a rotation from being mediocre to good, or vice versa. I think we learned that the hard way with Mazzone. Nobody is a cure-all.

[SportsGuy]

To me, the bottom line is this...DD is basically saying to Peterson, you can do what you want with our pitching.

So, with that being the case(at least seems to be the case), the Orioles should just tell Peterson that he either can be the pitching coach in the majors and he can bring in his own guys for the minors or vice versa.

I don't care which but everyone should be on the same page.

[RichardZ]

Much prefer Peterson overseeing the minor leagues and working with these guys before they get to the majors. I would prefer that Peterson doesn't become the pitching coach at the ML level. That's not where you should be looking to make major changes to a pitcher's mechanics. Hopefully, that will be done sooner and sooner and even long before these guys reach AAA.

[JeremyStrain]

^^ makes a good point. Having someone as PC that has similar philosophies to RP would be fine too, whatever the solution, the staff doesn't like their coach this year. And you can't give him credit for Hammel or Chen, you don't have a base of them in baltimore to compare to before Adair. If he leaves and they become terrible maybe there is a case, but I wouldn't be so quick to hand out credit for two guys who just got here.

[Bob Klein]

While history gives you reason to have these concerns, I think it's way too soon to know if this current thing is any kind of evidence that it continues. It might prove to be just as you say, or it might be rather different than that.

It's completely normal for folks in an org to have different opinions about how to best do things. If it's true that there is some conflict re: Adair, that fact does not say anything at all about whether the org is being properly run. The only thing that will tell us anything about that is how the matter is resolved. If that conflict is resolved in a satisfactory way and without undue outside drama, that would be consistent with a well run org. It's completely normal to want to wait for the off-season to make coaching changes. It's also completely normal for there to be some disagreement inside an org for some period of time before things get resolved (whether by personnel changes or by changes of attitude). We don't know what DD has said to either Buck or Adair. We don't know whether DD's intention is to try to keep the coaching staff as-is until the off-season. We don't know lots of things.

Now, if we find ourselves having this same discussion next season, that would prove things are as you suspect. But right now, if there is conflict, that doesn't tell us beans about PA screwing things up or about the org being screwy. The only thing that will tell us that is if the conflict is not resolved. If it is not resolved, then you can say he's still screwing things up. But not yet, I don't think... that would be jumping to a conclusion that is based 100% on the past. The rumor of just a current disagreement does not justify that. While there is truth in saying that good org's need a chain of command, you also gotta remember that most good org's are not run like the Army. And, if what my friends who have been in the military are to be believed, there is more disagreement within the military about how best to do things than you might suspect... and it is not always resolved in a short time window either.

Now, truth be told, I would not be shocked if we later learned you are right. (Disappointed, yes, but not shocked.) But there is no real reason to conclude that now, except for PA-hate.

First, let me say I do not even know Peter Angelos, never met him, and certainly don't hate him. I don't hate anyone.

My comment is largely based on almost two decades of news reports from many Baltimore sports media outlets, that described a pattern of disarray and chronic misunderstanding among members of the Baltimore Orioles' operating management, on the issue of exactly who is in charge of what at any given time.

I understand that different organizations require different management philosophies and styles. That's why I tried to limit my comments to goal-driven organizations, as opposed to process-driven, or results-driven ones. I agree that there is no need for a quasi-military hierarchical organization in baseball.

But I also preceded my comments by referring to the content of the preceding posts, which -- if accurate -- indicate that disagreement exists within the organization concerning direct oversight of the pitching function; specifically, exactly what is Peterson's role, if any, at the major league level? And, how does it tie in with Adair's role. From what I was able to infer from the posts, Buck doesn't have too much appreciation of Peterson's contributions, while Peterson's support comes mainly from Duquette, who (in theory) has hiring/firing authority over all field personnel, including Buck.

Clearly, this is a confusing issue, if it is an issue at all. Maybe all of the posts above that indicate there really is an issue here are just gossip or coincidence. I don't know, but it seems unlikely to me.

My point was (and is) that continuing confusion over such basic things like who is responsible for major league pitching results indicates, to me, that someone still has not established a clear organizational plan. If true that is particularly disturbing because it is occurring in the pitching function, which historically has been the Orioles'' most challenging problem -- at least for the last ten years.

Sorry for the long-winded reply.

Bob