135 replies to this topic

[Mackus]

Not sure it's really even a whiff. He wasn't good in 2022 and we drafted Jud Fabian with the pick we acquired. While I would've thought there was room for some good years, I never thought it was possible for him to reduce walks to that degree and become dominant. He cut the walks by more than half.

[mweb08]

Not sure it's really even a whiff. He wasn't good in 2022 and we drafted Jud Fabian with the pick we acquired. While I would've taught there was room for some good years, I never thought it was possible for him to reduce walks to that degree and become dominant. He cut the walks by more than half.

Well if the inverse happened I think as a board we'd be giving Elias and crew a ton of credit as we have for others, and rightly so. Thus I think it's fair to admit failure when another team takes one of our guys and has a Cano esque outcome with them.

[Mackus]

It's not a failure, IMO, but I also don't think Cano was anything they did intentionally either. I give most of the credit in each case to the players, not the development system.

[mweb08]

It's not a failure, IMO, but I also don't think Cano was anything they did intentionally either. I give most of the credit in each case to the players, not the development system.

That's fine, but I don't think that's the common belief here. I'm good with your consistency.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Haters gonna hate when it comes to Elias.  None of you would bet on Scott having another great year. None of you.

[mweb08]

Haters gonna hate when it comes to Elias. None of you would bet on Scott having another great year. None of you.

I've very consistently heavily praised Elias for player development. This stands out because it's the opposite of what we've come to expect here. We are now expecting to come out ahead when players join or leave our organization. That's a credit to Elias and why I said it was a rare whiff. But sure man, take the post the way you did instead.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

ROFL at it being a miss after 78 innings and one season. RP is volatile. That was by far his career year.  Hes generally been bad. The chances are he goes back to being mediocre to bad

[makoman]

I think it's very hard to be a successful major league pitcher, especially if you're a fringy reliever type. At the same time all these guys who make the majors have some kind of talent so there's a chance. But fringy relievers aren't going to get many chances, so if you can unlock it that's a testament to the team and the player. But I don't think it's a failure if a team doesn't unlock it. The Twins aren't really failures because Cano didn't do it with them, the Reds aren't because Perez was bad for them, and we didn't fail because Scott or Evan Phillips or Shawn Armstrong suddenly got good. A lot of things just have to go right, since these types of guys all have some warts or else they'd get a lot more chances. It might be the smallest of things that makes a difference. Hopefully if you're good you just have more go your way than the other way. And also relievers are notoriously pretty fickle, so one good/bad year doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot. Anyway, all that to say I give credit when teams have successes like this, but don't really take away credit when someone else does it with their old player.

[mweb08]

ROFL at it being a miss after 78 innings and one season. RP is volatile. That was by far his career year. Hes generally been bad. The chances are he goes back to being mediocre to bad

You could try to have a normal conversation instead of making something into all this hater/ROFL nonsense.

[mweb08]

I think it's very hard to be a successful major league pitcher, especially if you're a fringy reliever type. At the same time all these guys who make the majors have some kind of talent so there's a chance. But fringy relievers aren't going to get many chances, so if you can unlock it that's a testament to the team and the player. But I don't think it's a failure if a team doesn't unlock it. The Twins aren't really failures because Cano didn't do it with them, the Reds aren't because Perez was bad for them, and we didn't fail because Scott or Evan Phillips or Shawn Armstrong suddenly got good. A lot of things just have to go right, since these types of guys all have some warts or else they'd get a lot more chances. It might be the smallest of things that makes a difference. Hopefully if you're good you just have more go your way than the other way. And also relievers are notoriously pretty fickle, so one good/bad year doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot. Anyway, all that to say I give credit when teams have successes like this, but don't really take away credit when someone else does it with their old player.

I think it depends on the frequency of such developments. I give Elias and company lots of credit because they seem to be hitting on this sort of thing more often than usual.

Now if players were often struggling in an organization and then finding success elsewhere, that's where I think you have to question what's happening internally.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

You could try to have a normal conversation instead of making something into all this hater/ROFL nonsense.

Its not a miss. He hasnt done it long enough and its not like our return on that trade still couldnt provide future value.

As far as the rest, IMO you have an itchy trigger finger and always have. Its not only you but there are and have been a lot of petty criticisms while the tremendous work done gets this minor tip of the cap. Where is the long thought out thread from someone that truly appreciating how far this organization has come since the man took over. Never happened. But we did get one already questioning his ability during the next phase despite the fact we are so early into the win now phase. There is a contingent that doubts him and wants to criticize him at ever single turn. It does piss me off. Well into the middle of this season there were still "fans" who doubted all of it. Thought it was a fluke and were waiting for the shoe to drop.

[RichardZ]

ROFL at it being a miss after 78 innings and one season. RP is volatile. That was by far his career year.  Hes generally been bad. The chances are he goes back to being mediocre to bad

Wow! You’re taking this personal. Scott improved his control and in turn became successful. I will bet he can repeat it because there are clear reasons to explain his improvement. He always had the talent. Last year he found a way to be more consistent and he got better and better as the year progressed.

[mweb08]

Its not a miss. He hasnt done it long enough and its not like our return on that trade still couldnt provide future value.

As far as the rest, IMO you have an itchy trigger finger and always have. Its not only you but there are and have been a lot of petty criticisms while the tremendous work done gets this minor tip of the cap. Where is the long thought out thread from someone that truly appreciating how far this organization has come since the man took over. Never happened. But we did get one already questioning his ability during the next phase despite the fact we are so early into the win now phase. There is a contingent that doubts him and wants to criticize him at ever single turn. It does piss me off. Well into the middle of this season there were still "fans" who doubted all of it. Thought it was a fluke and were waiting for the shoe to drop.

It's a miss in the exact same way that Cano is a hit.

I've given him a ton of credit in this regard, so much that I shouldn't have to deal with this nonsense after saying a rare whiff related to player development. The use of the word rare (and the posts since) should clue someone in that this isn't the time to break out the hater nonsense. Also not what you're trying to say with itchy trigger finger but ok.

Minor tip of the cap is some more nonsense. Like how often do I and others need to say he's done an amazing job with drafting and development? Are you a burner account for a really insecure Mike Elias or something?

As for the thread that you seem to be referencing, go post in that thread if you have counters to what I said. Here's the thing though, you actually largely agree with what I said there, which again started with substantial praise for Elias before I got to the win now phase element. I know you actually generally agree based on when you've laid out in terms of what you wanted and expected to happen during the offseason and deadline vs what actually happened, the huge disappointment you've shared in your most candid moments at the moves and lack there of during these times, and the times where you've lamented over the poor pitching options for instance that the O's had down the stretch this season. Then of course you go back toward your must defend Elias position at almost all cost energy, which is why we're here now.

But so you hear it again from me: Elias has done a remarkable job at drafting, development, and basically anything that can fall under the rebuilding bucket of running an organization!

[TwentyThirtyFive]

1. The Cano trade is done from the what we gave up aspect. Lopez was a bum after leaving. Other aspects on our side still to be determined with McDermott and the lottery tickets. Its a total win. We can close the book on the Minn trade. The Marlins trade involving Scott is still very much tbd. I stand by that its a jump to be trying to grade this trade. I dont even know thats its fair to say its trending in one direction or another. Everyone we got back is so young/early into their pro careers.


2. I dont think youre a hater. My annoyance should be reserved for the real haters, but I also dont get the other thread either. Its so early into the win now phase of all of this and it seems unfair to question if he can be a "war time consigliere". I do wish he wouldve been more proactive at the deadline. Without knowing exactly what was discussed and what other teams wanted I do find it hard to believe I wouldnt have pulled the trigger on another deal or two. Still, again, its early into the win now phase and I dont think there should be any real doubt at this point.

[mweb08]

1. I actually wasn't even thinking about the trade aspect at all with Scott or Cano. I was only considering the player development angle.

2. It's not just the deadline, it's last offseason too. Both have been really bad so it should be of concern. Ownership is of course a factor as well. I could go on, but that's for the other thread, I'll just again conclude that hopefully he alleviates that concern this offseason.

[Mike B]

I think we all need to understand that no GM or decision maker has ever been perfect and Elias is not the exception.  That said,while I still detest the process, he has done a terrific job.  The Scott trade was a headscratcher to me at the time, only because I felt he was needed, but Felix, Lopez and others proved that not to be true.  We may have lost the trade but until we see what Fabian becomes, it is too soon to know.  

Even if it proves to be a loss, so what, it happens and the team is in great shape.