822 replies to this topic

[KWebz]

Graf was just as dominant as Williams. More consistent. If she plays into her 30s she probably wins 2-3 more. It's not like she fell off a cliff.

She did play into her 30s and did fall off like a cliff. Serena is more powerful, hands down. You can say what you want about primes and Serena should have won more in her 20s and all that but it's pretty undisputed that Serena has the fastest serve, the most powerful forehand, and a really dominant backhand

[Nigel Tufnel]

She did play into her 30s and did fall off like a cliff. 

 

I'm just going by Wikipedia, but Graf turned 30 in June 1999 and retired two months later, in August.  In between, she made the Wimbledon finals.

 

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Steffi_Graf

[KWebz]

She did play into her 30s and did fall off like a cliff. 

  I'm just going by Wikipedia, but Graf turned 30 in June 1999 and retired two months later, in August.  In between, she made the Wimbledon finals.   https://en.wikipedia...iki/Steffi_Graf

You're right. My bad

[mweb08]

She did only win one grand slam in her final three years so I'm not sure it should be assumed she would have added more at an age where grand slams are scarce.

Regarding competition, I think it was Nigel that pointed out how significant the stabbing of Seles was, who was dominant at the time. Graf then regained the #1 spot and racked up a lot of wins. I think that's the more important what if to play with her compared to if she lengthened her career.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I don't know if anybody else saw this, but during the Wimbledon studio coverage, Darren Cahill and Brad Gilbert made the point that both Serena and Graf were/are great athletes (as compared to somebody like Sharapova, who's just really good at tennis).

 

They told a story about how Graf used to train by running 400m intervals on a track.  The German Olympic track coach happened to see her once, and timed her... and her times could have put her on Germany's Olympic relay team.

 

It's really hard to compare different generations in tennis, because the racket technology keeps advancing, and the surfaces have become so similar.  I think tennis is clearly being played at its highest level ever right now, but that doesn't mean that past players, given access to today's equipment, couldn't have competed with today's players.

[bnickle]

She did play into her 30s and did fall off like a cliff. Serena is more powerful, hands down. You can say what you want about primes and Serena should have won more in her 20s and all that but it's pretty undisputed that Serena has the fastest serve, the most powerful forehand, and a really dominant backhand

Kelly, I'm playing my old man card here. I remember Graf. She was powerful and dominant. She also had some injury and other issues in her life. Her dad, who she was close with and I believe her coach, went to jail in the middle of her career and threw her off for a few years. When Graf was on she was just as scary as Serena.

[bnickle]

I'm just going by Wikipedia, but Graf turned 30 in June 1999 and retired two months later, in August. In between, she made the Wimbledon finals.

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Steffi_Graf

She retired at 30 still ranked 3rd and coming off the French Open title and Winmbleton finals. She may not have won another title. Hingis was starting to dominate and there were some other good players. I would have bet on her winning another one though.

[mweb08]

She did play into her 30s and did fall off like a cliff. Serena is more powerful, hands down. You can say what you want about primes and Serena should have won more in her 20s and all that but it's pretty undisputed that Serena has the fastest serve, the most powerful forehand, and a really dominant backhand

Kelly, I'm playing my old man card here. I remember Graf. She was powerful and dominant. She also had some injury and other issues in her life. Her dad, who she was close with and I believe her coach, went to jail in the middle of her career and threw her off for a few years. When Graf was on she was just as scary as Serena.

Serena has also dealt with injuries/health issues as well as depression.

[bnickle]

Serena has also dealt with injuries/health issues as well as depression.

We've established that. Graf was as dominant, probably more, over her career considering it was shorter. It's a matter of competition and the impossible task of trying to match the two up in their prime that is tough. It's a very close and good debate.

[mweb08]

Serena has also dealt with injuries/health issues as well as depression.

We've established that. Graf was as dominant, probably more, over her career considering it was shorter. It's a matter of competition and the impossible task of trying to match the two up in their prime that is tough. It's a very close and good debate.

If Seles doesn't get stabbed are we even having this conversation?

[KWebz]

Serena has also dealt with injuries/health issues as well as depression.

We've established that. Graf was as dominant, probably more, over her career considering it was shorter. It's a matter of competition and the impossible task of trying to match the two up in their prime that is tough. It's a very close and good debate.

Indeed its a good debate. I will say that I obviously have never seen Graf play live but my dad did want to name me after her since she was super dominant at the time I was born. But anyway in the end we may never be able to know what the outcome would be if the two played one another. I think Serena is a strong favorite to win at least 3-5 more gs titles before her age catches up to her. Right now there isn't consistent competition but a steady amount of good challengers to come her way. I love how in the final Serena used her opponents height against her. Normally being 6'1" would be a good advantage but Serena was able to consistently hit the ball to her feet and close to her body where she would have a hard time. That was the best part about the match imo

[bnickle]

That was essentially the same time Graf was going through her personal issues too. The Seles stabbing is overblown to some degree in Grafs dominance. Graf wasn't at the top of her game either when Seles was #1.

[bnickle]

Also, you can't assume or know how long Seles was going to continue to play at such a high level. Maybe she had 6 months of elite level play in her or 6 years. Have no idea.

[mweb08]

Also, you can't assume or know how long Seles was going to continue to play at such a high level. Maybe she had 6 months of elite level play in here or 6 years. Have no idea.

Sure, we don't know. But I don't see how the she retired early card can weigh more heavily than the Seles stabbing. And if you're going to take personal issues into account, well that's part of why Serena hasn't won more as well.

[bnickle]

You take everything into account. Like I said, it's an interesting debate. I believe that both in their prime is an amazing matchup. It seems you and Kelly don't believe that's true. It sounds like you both believe Serena is the better, more dominant player. I'm just saying you need to slow down going full throttle on that.

[mweb08]

You take everything into account. Like I said, it's an interesting debate. I believe that both in their prime is an amazing matchup. It seems you and Kelly don't believe that's true. It sounds like you both believe Serena is the better, more dominant player. I'm just saying you need to slow down going full throttle on that.

I'm not saying anything regarding if they played as I would have to go back and watch Graf to refresh my memory.

But I do think that when measuring their careers without doing a deep dive here, that the circumstances don't favor Graf to where I would give her the edge assuming Serena passes her in grand slams.

[bnickle]

It's still debatable if Serena passes her. Graf had better overall competition. Beginning of her career Navratilova was still around. Seles did dominate for awhile. Hingis stormed in in the late 90's when Graf was finishing up.  I feel like Serena hasn't really had any other great player playing during her era. Sharapova as a rival?? Really?? Justine Henin?? Venus??Very good players, but nothing elite. The big thing the last few years in womens tennis was why isn't there anyone really stepping up here. How is Caroline Wozniacki, a little counter puncher who isn't a huge Major's threat the #1 player. Serena is certainly benefiting right now from a lack of any real competition and yes, its because no one else is really that good. You play who's put in front of you. I get that, but a few extra titles isnt going to change my opinion much.  Graf had a better peak, higher winning %. All against better competition. 

[SportsGuy]

Serena's health issues as re the only seeing this even a debate...otherwise, he probably has 30 titles and it's not close.

That being said, the argument can be made that Graf had the better career because of her own dominance and the competition being better....but she's not a better player. Serena would just be too powerful for her.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Serena would just be too powerful for her.

 

I don't know - Graf was a power player for her time, and it's not like she's tiny - she's actually taller than Serena (although it's not her height that makes Serena so physically intimidating).  But it's just impossible to say for sure, because of the difference in racket technology between now and 20 years ago.

 

They actually played twice in 1999, Graf's last year and the year Serena won her first major, and they each won once.

 

But in a lot of ways, Serena is Steffi 2.0, so I'd probably go with Serena, just not by a landslide.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Could be wrong, but wasn't Venus supposed to be better? Crazy how things turn out sometimes.