83 replies to this topic

[dude]

"Alright, Andy, go build us a winning team."

 

 

There's no truth to this for MacPhail, in fact, he specifically told us that he was doing the exact opposite of winning.  He was willing to sacrifice any accountability for winning in (his) Phase 1 and Phase 2.  The Plan was to accept losing to rebuild. 

 

I mean, this is sort of an important point....MacPhail was allowed to do whatever he wanted in terms of developing the longer-term foundation of the club over 4.5 years with no accountability for winning.  The Orioles were under a lot of very public pressure to do something because they didn't have an organizational strategy that allowed them to get better players (still don't) and they were obviously tired of the beatings they were taking from the fanbase, in some of the not-in-house media outlets and the national media.

 

"Rebuiilding" was the strategy to defer organizational accountability.  

To move it years to the right.  

To remove the external pressure to commit to winning.

 

He certainly earned the "F" for Win NOW.  Can we just get some consensus on that to move on to the next grade?  

[DJ MC]

There's no truth to this for MacPhail, in fact, he specifically told us that he was doing the exact opposite of winning.  He was willing to sacrifice any accountability for winning in (his) Phase 1 and Phase 2.  The Plan was to accept losing to rebuild. 

 

I mean, this is sort of an important point....MacPhail was allowed to do whatever he wanted in terms of developing the longer-term foundation of the club over 4.5 years with no accountability for winning.  The Orioles were under a lot of very public pressure to do something because they didn't have an organizational strategy that allowed them to get better players (still don't) and they were obviously tired of the beatings they were taking from the fanbase, in some of the not-in-house media outlets and the national media.

 

"Rebuiilding" was the strategy to defer organizational accountability.  

To move it years to the right.  

To remove the external pressure to commit to winning.

 

He certainly earned the "F" for Win NOW.  Can we just get some consensus on that to move on to the next grade?  

 

You can move on whenever you want. Doesn't mean anyone has to accept why you are using four seasons of a 25-year career as a GM to grade him a failure for the whole thing.

[dude]

MacPhail put the core of a winning team together, and I'm not sure how you can say otherwise.

 

So this is sort of an important question.

 

If what you say is true and we pretend the success of 2012 was the natural conclusion of the 'work' done over the previous 4+ years, why walk away from it?

 

If MacPhail knows how to win WS (Twins) and we know he's interested in 'getting credit'.....why not stick around and complete "Phase 3" and show everyone that you can get it done and stick it in the face of your doubters.  Every report had Angelos asking MacPhail to stay and AM chose to leave.

 

Spend more time with his kids?  His kid was working for him. 

[dude]

You can move on whenever you want. Doesn't mean anyone has to accept why you are using four seasons of a 25-year career as a GM to grade him a failure for the whole thing.

 

OK, then you tell me what his career W% as a GM was.

 

Also....if you want to use his time as the Twins GM to justify the ranking (OK, whatever)...then just leave off the Orioles part.

[bnickle]

Why is JTrea allowed to have two screenames here?

[DJ MC]

OK, then you tell me what his career W% as a GM was.

 

Also....if you want to use his time as the Twins GM to justify the ranking (OK, whatever)...then just leave off the Orioles part.

 

Or, you could use his entire career. Like, you know, the author did.

[dude]

Or, you could use his entire career. Like, you know, the author did.

 

There is nothing in his Orioles tenure that could support a justification of excellence.

 

Again, if you want to use his Twins performance (ie WS in 87 and 91) to justify the ranking, then do it and leave it at that.  Winning a WS is a Win NOW event......so in his tenures with the Cubs and Orioles, how did he repeat that level of performance?

 

What his career GM WAR?  

[SammyBirdland]

I'm not saying he was good or bad, I'm just saying that I'm sure the limitations place on him were challenging to say the least.

[DJ MC]

There is nothing in his Orioles tenure that could support a justification of excellence.

 

Again, if you want to use his Twins performance (ie WS in 87 and 91) to justify the ranking, then do it and leave it at that.  Winning a WS is a Win NOW event......so in his tenures with the Cubs and Orioles, how did he repeat that level of performance?

 

What his career GM WAR?  

 

I thought you wanted to move on?

[dude]

I thought you wanted to move on?

 

Seemed like you wanted to continue to question his Win NOW career.

 

Here's the tally......

 

He was GM (or whatever for the Orioles) for 16 seasons (MIN 85-94, CHC 00-02, BAL 08-11).  I did not include the strike shortened (17th) 94 season where he was 53-60.

 

Career W% .471 (an average of 76.3 W)

 

90+ W 3 seasons

80+ W 3

70+ W 4

60+ W 6

 

top 3rd division finish: 4 times

middle 3rd: 4 times

bottom 3rd: 8 times

[RShack]

Awesome trades. Young pitchers didn't work out perfectly, as they rarely do. Those that did took maybe a little extra time. MacPhail was just fine, but he promised, or gave the impression of, a 4-year plan for winning. 4-year turnarounds are pretty rare, particularly sustainable ones. I feel comfortable saying that what he set out to do was accomplished in 5 with help from DD, which is still pretty amazing.

 

From when he got hired, I was saying it would take 5 years minimum, maybe a couple years longer.  At the time, I was dumb enough to think that people would go by actual evidence... so, like a dummy, I did a bunch of homework about how long it took franchises to go from being crappy to being solid franchises that were good all the time (not just 1-year wonders based on writing fat checks)... but that didn't matter... some folks still insisted he could wheel-and-deal his way into turning the O's around into being reliably good in just 2 or 3 years, which is completely nuts, but there you are... it was like talking to the damn wall...

[RShack]

There's no truth to this for MacPhail, in fact, he specifically told us that he was doing the exact opposite of winning.  He was willing to sacrifice any accountability for winning in (his) Phase 1 and Phase 2.  The Plan was to accept losing to rebuild. 

 

I mean, this is sort of an important point....MacPhail was allowed to do whatever he wanted in terms of developing the longer-term foundation of the club over 4.5 years with no accountability for winning.  

 

The first part is true.  He took ~6 months to look around, top to bottom, before he said anything.  Then, when he did say something, he said that even though he expected things to be bad, he discovered that things were a lot worse than he had realized before.  That's when he said fixing the mess would take longer than he had previously thought.  He said all that right out loud where everybody could hear it.  All by itself, that proved he was both not insane and not willing to lie about it either.  Nobody wanted to hear that, but he said it anyway.

 

It's not that he was "willing to sacrifice winning", it was that there were exactly zero ways to fix the franchise without accepting that there were gonna be some rough seasons while going from the mess he found to having a franchise that wasn't totally screwed up.  That's not him throwing the idea of winning in the trash, that was just him telling people the truth whether they wanted to hear it or not... which a lot of folks didn't, but he said it anyway.

 

As for being "allowed to do whatever he wanted in terms of developing the longer-term foundation of the club", that's just BS.  He wasn't allowed to do that.  There were guys in the way that PA wouldn't let him fire, there were things he was not allowed to change.  I'm pretty sure that's why he quit.  I figure either one of two things happened:  either he told PA the conditions (authority) he needed to stay, and PA turned him down, or else he had had those discussions all along and just got fed up.  Either way, it was because he had his hands tied.  And when PA saw that not only would a sensible guy like AM politely tell him to take the Orioles job and shove it, but that nobody (and I do mean nobody) on the radar screen to replace him wanted any part of the job, and when I imagine Buck was telling him the same things about what needed to change, *that's* why he gave DD more room to change the organization than AM ever had.

 

So, you can say whatever you want about his career as a whole, but the way you've characterized his time with the Orioles includes large dollops of fact-twisting and BS.

[DJ MC]

#23: John Hart

 

For the 32 seasons before John Hart was promoted to general manager in September 1991, the Cleveland Indians never finished closer than 11 games from first in a full season.  And they certainly didn’t appear to be making progress; in 1991 the team lost 105 games, finished last in the league in runs and ninth in runs allowed, and drew the fewest fans in the league for the third year in row.  Hart had his work cut out for him.

[DJ MC]

#22: Jim Campbell

 

Jim Campbell was decidedly old school.  He believed in building teams through scouting and development.  He displayed loyalty to his players and staff, who he expected to work hard and show appreciation for their opportunity. To those he respected he would be generous and loyal.  On those principles his Detroit Tigers won the 1968 World Series.

[DJ MC]

BONUS: Charlie Finley

 

Along with our countdown of the greatest 25 GMs in history, we plan to write about people who did not make our list (as well as other topics related to baseball operations and front offices).  This guy does not qualify for our Top 25, because we chose to not include people who also owned the team.  Had we not made this (somewhat arbitrary) decision, he would certainly have been included.

 

...

 

But while Finley was distracting us with all the nonsense, angering his fellow owners, managers, and players, he also built a great team. And give the rascal his due — he did most of the work himself....

[DJ MC]

#21: Brian Cashman

 

The problem is not that Cashman has not done a fine job — he obviously has.  It’s that no one else in history has ever had a job like it.  There is really no one to compare him to.

[dude]

...., but the way you've characterized his time with the Orioles includes large dollops of fact-twisting and BS.

 

...the best part of the quote is you accusing me of "fact-twisting and BS" as you use your unsubstantiated opinion as a fabricated bar of truth.

[RShack]

...the best part of the quote is you accusing me of "fact-twisting and BS" as you use your unsubstantiated opinion as a fabricated bar of truth.

 

What did I say that isn't true?  (Answer: nothing)

[DJ MC]

#20: Cedric Tallis

 

Relatively quickly Tallis assembled the Royals teams that would dominate the AL West throughout the late 1970s. That he was no longer in Kansas City when they broke through was unfortunate for Tallis, but for all practical purposes those great teams were his creation.

[DJ MC]

#19: Lee MacPhail

 

Lee MacPhail ran two baseball teams — the Orioles (1958-1965) and Yankees (1966-1973) — and did not win a pennant at either stop.  That said, the evidence suggests that he did a great job at both places, dramatically improving organizations that had been in disarray and won championships soon after he had (voluntarily) moved on.