111 replies to this topic

[PD24]

You just told me this is the most naturally talented and athletic teams of your lifetime.

Which is it??

I mean thats a laughable statement anyway. Were you born in 2013?? People who keep saying that are just trying to find a way to blame Turg.

The guy isn't blameless but this team has serious issues and talent is most def one of them. Lol at calling a team with Smo, Cleare, and Cleare in the frontcourt athletic.

 

I'm talking pure athleticism. What recent MD players had the sheer natural athleticism that Faust and Wells have? What recent PG had the athleticism that Peters has? Not saying I will take him over Eric Hayes but Peters has more athleticism in his left leg than Hayes had in his body. 

 

With Gary, we'd always laugh at other teams who had so many athletes/so much talent but didn't have high basketball IQ. Unfortunately, that is now us. 

[Pedro Cerrano]

I'm talking pure athleticism. What recent MD players had the sheer natural athleticism that Faust and Wells have? What recent PG had the athleticism that Peters has? Not saying I will take him over Eric Hayes but Peters has more athleticism in his left leg than Hayes had in his body. 

 

With Gary, we'd always laugh at other teams who had so many athletes/so much talent but didn't have high basketball IQ. Unfortunately, that is now us. 

 

How recent?

 

I don't find Nick Faust to be all that athletic.

 

But then again I don't think much of Nick Faust.

[BSLChrisStoner]

How recent?

 

I don't find Nick Faust to be all that athletic.

 

But then again I don't think much of Nick Faust.

 

Faust is extremely athletic. We don't see enough of it, because he's busy missing 3's. He's an excellent open court player, with plus hops.

[Mackus]

This team has some good athletes, but overall can't even remotely hold a candle to previous teams in terms of athleticism.

 

Mike Jones, DJ Strawberry, and Jamar Smith (not the most atheltic trio we've ever had here, but 3 solid athletes) had more athleticism than Wells, Faust, and Layman do, and they are our top 3.  I don't see Peters as being all that athletic.  Certianly moreso than guys like Hayes or Blake, but he's similar to Greivis than a truly crazy athletic PG type like a Tyreke Evans.  Gilchrist, for example, was a better athlete than we've seen from Peters, IMO.

 

The only above average athletes over 6' 5" on this team are Layman and Dodd.  Smot, Cleare, and Mitchell have zero athleticism.  Graham is ok, but nothing special (a less skilled version of Dino Gregory).

[BSLChrisStoner]

This team has some good athletes, but overall can't even remotely hold a candle to previous teams in terms of athleticism.

 

Mike Jones, DJ Strawberry, and Jamar Smith (not the most atheltic trio we've ever had here, but 3 solid athletes) had more athleticism than Wells, Faust, and Layman do, and they are our top 3.  I don't see Peters as being all that athletic.  Certianly moreso than guys like Hayes or Blake, but he's similar to Greivis than a truly crazy athletic PG type like a Tyreke Evans.  Gilchrist, for example, was a better athlete than we've seen from Peters, IMO.

 

The only above average athletes over 6' 5" on this team are Layman and Dodd.  Smot, Cleare, and Mitchell have zero athleticism.  Graham is ok, but nothing special (a less skilled version of Dino Gregory).

 

I'm repeating myself, but I agree and disagree with you.

I agree this team has athletes, I don't agree that they are more athletic vs. any team since the title.

 

Peters has quickness, and flexibility. Showed some strength getting his shot off while being fouled last night. He's not overly explosive, but he is much quicker than Vasquez. Haven't seen him get off the floor much.

 

The Graham comparison to Gregory is apt.

 

Saying Cleare and Mitchell have no athleticism is not the right description imo. They play below the rim, but that is not the only definition of athleticism. They run well for their size, they have flexibility... neither are overly stiff.

 

Dodd has bounce in his legs... Layman does have good athleticism. Same level of athleticism that NCM had before getting hurt, that he never quite got back.

[Mackus]

Cleare and Mitchell are not athletic.  Or at least, are not as athletic as the average big man at this level.  Mitchell has a bit of quickness, that helps him offensive rebound, but neither of these guys are faster than your average big man, both have below average leaping ability, and while Cleare has strength, he doesn't use it on the court to establish a physical defensive or offensive presence.  And while it's not a question of athleticism, neither of these guys have any skill offensively.  If you aren't an elite athlete, you have to have deft offensive moves or be able to knock down a jump hook or 15-footer to have any real use.  Mitchell would be passable as your first big off the bench, better as your 4th guy in a rotation.  Cleare is not an upper level D1 player, and should look to transfer after the season.

 

I think Layman is more athletic than Nik was, even before the injury.  I think he compares nicely to Landon Milbourne.  Tiny bit more size and bulk, maybe a bit less quick, but pretty similar.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Cleare and Mitchell are not athletic.  Or at least, are not as athletic as the average big man at this level.  Mitchell has a bit of quickness, that helps him offensive rebound, but neither of these guys are faster than your average big man, both have below average leaping ability, and while Cleare has strength, he doesn't use it on the court to establish a physical defensive or offensive presence.  And while it's not a question of athleticism, neither of these guys have any skill offensively.  If you aren't an elite athlete, you have to have deft offensive moves or be able to knock down a jump hook or 15-footer to have any real use.  Mitchell would be passable as your first big off the bench, better as your 4th guy in a rotation.  Cleare is not an upper level D1 player, and should look to transfer after the season.

 

I think Layman is more athletic than Nik was, even before the injury.  I think he compares nicely to Landon Milbourne.

 

Simply not true about Cleare and Mitchell, unless your only definition of athleticism is leaping ability. There are not many guys with their girth that run as well as they do.

Playing below the rim limits them. Mitchell really being 6'6 limits him. Neither one really has an offensive game beyond put-backs... Mitchell has a few moves in the post, Cleare has his little hook.. neither are there consistently. Plenty of limitations as players. Saying neither have the athleticism of an average big at this level is not accurate imo.

 

NCM's vertical never quite came back. He had more explosion prior. Layman can get up. He's done well as a help defender. We've seen him in the open court, and also a couple of slams off the baseline. Last night his length was making a difference defensively.  I'd give Milbourne the edge head-to-head in just athleticism, but there are some similarities.

[Mackus]

Simply not true about Cleare and Mitchell, unless your only definition of athleticism is leaping ability.

 

It's absolutely true that these guys aren't athletic big men.  They don't get graded on a curve because they are heavy.  They aren't as fast, quick, agile, or able to leap as well as a typical starting or top reserve ACC big.  Cleare is above average in terms of strength of a big man.  Mitchell may be slightly above average in quickness, or at least is above average at being able to get off the ground quickly which is a key to offensive rebounding.  Neither have average leaping ability or speed. 

 

Take a look at a typical big man that plays significant minutes in the rotation, and more of them than not will be better athletes than Mitchell and Cleare.  They aren't the worst athletes in the group, but they aren't above average, IMO.  Not everyone has to be athletic to be succesful, under-the-rim players with limited athleticism can still be successful (Jordan Williams is a great example, average at best athlete, but very highly skilled with great hands and touch).  But they can't be successful unless they are highly physical or highly skilled, and neither of these guys have any real skills.  Stone hands, despite the strength neither are particularly physical, and neither can shoot nor have any effective post moves.

[BSLChrisStoner]

It's absolutely true that these guys aren't athletic big men.  They don't get graded on a curve because they are heavy.  They aren't as fast, quick, agile, or able to leap as well as a typical starting or top reserve ACC big.  Cleare is above average in terms of strength of a big man.  Mitchell may be slightly above average in quickness, or at least is above average at being able to get off the ground quickly which is a key to offensive rebounding.  Neither have average leaping ability or speed. 

 

Take a look at a typical big man that plays significant minutes in the rotation, and more of them than not will be better athletes than Mitchell and Cleare.  They aren't the worst athletes in the group, but they aren't above average, IMO.  Not everyone has to be athletic to be succesful, under-the-rim players with limited athleticism can still be successful (Jordan Williams is a great example, average at best athlete, but very highly skilled with great hands and touch).  But they can't be successful unless they are highly physical or highly skilled, and neither of these guys have any real skills.  Stone hands, despite the strength neither are particularly physical, and neither can shoot nor have any effective post moves.

 

They don't get beat up and down the floor. In-fact, when MD is in a transition game, they usually beat their opposing defender.

[Mackus]

They don't get beat up and down the floor. In-fact, when MD is in a transition game, they usually beat their opposing defender.

 

They don't get beat up and down the floor, but I can't remember any fast breaks this year where our guy beat their defender and finished.  I'm sure it's happened, but it certainly isn't consistent.  I'd still say they are below average in terms of speed, but if you wanna call them average, that's fine.

 

Whether you think they are average athletes or I think they are below average athletes, it's pretty much irrelevant.  Cleare definitely does not have the skills required to pair with his level of athleticism to be a successful big.  Mitchell is skilled enough to be usable in a rotation given his athletic limitations, but is not good enough that you'd be happy to have him as one of your starting bigs.  He could be your first big man off the bench, or even more ideally your 2nd.  Gotta hope that we either recruit over these guys or that they develop some skills to actually help the team.  At this point, I think recruiting over them is more likely.

[BSLChrisStoner]

They don't get beat up and down the floor, but I can't remember any fast breaks this year where our guy beat their defender and finished.  I'm sure it's happened, but it certainly isn't consistent.  I'd still say they are below average in terms of speed, but if you wanna call them average, that's fine.

 

Whether you think they are average athletes or I think they are below average athletes, it's pretty much irrelevant.  Cleare definitely does not have the skills required to pair with his level of athleticism to be a successful big.  Mitchell is skilled enough to be usable in a rotation given his athletic limitations, but is not good really enough that you'd be happy to have him as one of your starting bigs.  He could be your first big man off the bench, or even more ideally your 2nd.  Gotta hope that we either recruit over these guys or that they develop some skills to actually help the team.  At this point, I think recruiting over them is more likely.

 

Right, this is the bottom-line.  Mitchell is a good offensive rebounder, and plays with energy. Turgeon has continually pointed to Cleare's defense. Both are capable of being rotation bigs, neither one you want starting with their offensive limitations.

You brought up Jordan Williams... and correctly pointed to his hands, touch... I'd also mention his power... he wasn't a high-flyer, but he played with power. One thing that Williams excelled at, was beating his guy back down the other end... but MD was looking to push the ball as well.

Cleare and Mitchell are not going to be productive 1/2 court players. I think Turgeon could help them both by having an offense that was less set, more open attacking....  and looking to push the ball right back down the throat of opposing teams, when opposing teams score.

Cleare in particular... he was a guy that numerous recruiting analysts were excited about. There was something there. My guess is playing with the Harrison Brothers in AAU play elevated him.... but also that the style of play seen in AAU is probably how he would be best utilized.

[Mackus]

I don't agree that Cleare is capable of being a rotation big.  I don't think he's currently capable of contributing to a high level program, even as a reserve.

 

He'll have to improve to even get good enough to deserve to see bench minutes.  It's just one game, but he barely got off the bench against Miami.