41 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

The official teams will come out soon enough. Here's mine:

G: Paul (No brainer)
G: Wade (Tough call here since he has missed quite a few games, but he's easily among the top two guards)
F: James (Best player in the league)
F: Durant (No brainer)
C: Howard (Despite the drama and now the injury, he still had the best season for a center)

G: Westbrook (Gets an unfairly bad rap, very similar to Rose)
G: Bryant (Played at a very high level early on, but since faded and has now missed some games. Still very good, though)
F: Love (Toughest omission from the first team)
F: Griffin (Had a really strong season and has been durable)
C: Bynum ( Missed the first 5 games and has had some poor moments of lack of maturity, but he's been great)

G: Parker (Has been the best player on the team with tied for the best record)
G: Nash (Has led a poor team to the verge of the playoffs)
F: Aldridge ( Had a very good season playing for a team that fell apart mid way through the year)
F: Nowitzki (Maybe a little extra credit for his rep, but he's played very well after a slow start)
C: Duncan ("The greatest PF ever" continues to mostly play the 5 since Robinson retired, and he plays it very well in limited minutes)

Others considered:

Al Jefferson: Very strong season for him
Josh Smith: Does a lot of positive things on the court
Greg Monroe: An emerging top center
Paul Pierce: Still getting it done
Carmelo Anthony: Playing tremendously of late, but couldn't give him a spot considering the time missed and the lack of effort/quality play for much of the season
Ryan Anderson: He's great at being a big that stretches the floor
James Harden: Best 6th man in the league along with Manu.
Pau Gasol: Another strong year although his role changed some and that hurt his stats a little.

I'd say SG is the weakest overall position in the league.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Where do you rank Marc Gasol among Centers?

[mweb08]

Where do you rank Marc Gasol among Centers?

Depends on who is considered a center or a PF, but in the 7-10 range. Howard, Bynum, Duncan, Chandler (should have listed him above), Jefferson, and Monroe would be above him imo. He's in the next group with Hibbert, Gortat, and Noah. I'd also rank his brother higher, but of course he's now playing the 4 most of the time.

[Pedro Cerrano]

1st Team: Paul, Bryant, James, Durant, Bynum

2nd Team: Parker, Wade, Love, Nowitzki, Howard

[mweb08]

1st Team: Paul, Bryant, James, Durant, Bynum

2nd Team: Parker, Wade, Love, Nowitzki, Howard

Kobe on the first team simply because of the missed games by Wade?

[Pedro Cerrano]

Kobe's either going to win the scoring title or come damn close. Hard to leave that off the 1st team. Also their assist and rebound totals are similar as well.

I don't get PER completely but I was shocked that Wade's was so much higher than Kobe's -- might be due to FG%

[Pedro Cerrano]

I didn't really consider the injuries since Kobe has been hurt too.

[mweb08]

Yeah, he'll win it or come close because he's shooting too much. I'm not sure why someone would reward him for shooting more than he should.

He's shooting 23 times a game, 3.4 times more per game than Durant, who is second in the league in that category.

Like I said, he got off to a very good start, but in January, he shot 40% and in February he shot 39%, yet he did not reduce his shooting volume.

Yes, 50% to 43% has a lot to do with the PER difference. Wade also gets an edge in assists and offensive rebounds considering minutes played and usage rate. I'd also say Wade is the better defender at this point in their careers.

[Pedro Cerrano]

I'm not rewarding him per se. I just don't think it's as big of a deal as you do.

You have to go back almost 8 years (McGrady) for when a scoring champ was left off the first team (he lost to Kobe and Kidd at the guard positions).

I can definitely see the argument for Wade, but I also think maybe Wade was helped out playing with LeBron? How much does it help him when defenses are pretty much forced to treat him as the #2 threat when they share the floor?

[mweb08]

I'm not rewarding him per se. I just don't think it's as big of a deal as you do.

You have to go back almost 8 years (McGrady) for when a scoring champ was left off the first team (he lost to Kobe and Kidd at the guard positions).

I can definitely see the argument for Wade, but I also think maybe Wade was helped out playing with LeBron? How much does it help him when defenses are pretty much forced to treat him as the #2 threat when they share the floor?

Well when your main argument is he should be on the 1st team because he may end up the scoring leader, then yeah, it seems like you're rewarding him. We both agree he should shoot less, and if he shot 20 times a game (still the most in the league) then he'd be 5th or 6th in the league in scoring and he'd be helping his team more.

I think one of the problems with the Heat is that Wade and LeBron aren't really helped much by the presence of the other on the court. Other than in the transition game, they don't compliment each other well. Their PER numbers were actually better the two years prior to becoming teammates.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Well yea I suppose if his high PPG is a function of his shooting a lot than I guess he's being indirectly rewarded. But nobody is putting him on the 1st team solely because he shoots a lot, that's just silly. He'd be put there because he won the scoring title. Like it or not, that sort of thing carries a lot of weight, like leading the league in wins or something, but moreso.

I agree the two Heat players don't complement each other well, but that doesn't mean Wade doesn't benefit from LBJ being out there. I know if I were a head coach I'd do whatever I could to try to slow LeBron down. It would naturally follow that Wade would be free to do his thing a little more.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Yeah, he'll win it or come close because he's shooting too much. I'm not sure why someone would reward him for shooting more than he should.

He's shooting 23 times a game, 3.4 times more per game than Durant, who is second in the league in that category.

Like I said, he got off to a very good start, but in January, he shot 40% and in February he shot 39%, yet he did not reduce his shooting volume.

Yes, 50% to 43% has a lot to do with the PER difference. Wade also gets an edge in assists and offensive rebounds considering minutes played and usage rate. I'd also say Wade is the better defender at this point in their careers.

I'm not sure what usage rate is (seriously), but they are both averaging 33 MPG so while Kobe does need to defer more, it looks to me like they're both equally good at distributing the ball to their teammates.

Whoops, looks like I was looking at Kobe's 2010-2011 MPG, nevermind.

[mweb08]

Well yea I suppose if his high PPG is a function of his shooting a lot than I guess he's being indirectly rewarded. But nobody is putting him on the 1st team solely because he shoots a lot, that's just silly. He'd be put there because he won the scoring title. Like it or not, that sort of thing carries a lot of weight, like leading the league in wins or something, but moreso.

I agree the two Heat players don't complement each other well, but that doesn't mean Wade doesn't benefit from LBJ being out there. I know if I were a head coach I'd do whatever I could to try to slow LeBron down. It would naturally follow that Wade would be free to do his thing a little more.

If he didn't shoot 3.4 times more than anyone else, he wouldn't be the scoring champion. So the reason for him winning the scoring title if he does win it, will almost solely be because of how much he shoots, not because he's the best scorer, because he's not by a long stretch. If it was a situation where he needed to shoot as much as he has, I would look at it differently, but when he took 2 months out of a condensed season shooting 23 times a game despite shooting under 40% while having two AS caliber bigs, I'm not going to give him props for winning the scoring title.

And yeah, I think bringing up pitching wins is a good analogy because neither are tremendously important without looking at the whole picture. I'm also not that interested in what has traditionally carried a lot of weight because I think that's often a lazy way to look at things and results in people giving awards based on AVG, RBI, and wins. It's a good way to predict who will win awards, but not a good way to give them.

For Wade and LBJ, it really just doesn't work that way considering how their offense works. When one guy has the ball, the other isn't often in a situation where the D has to focus on them more than usual. The D can focus on both Wade and James a lot when they have the ball.

If anything, Kobe has the better offensive situation with his teammates because he has the traditional and more mutually beneficial synergy of a great big plus a very good big to go along with he as the perimeter scorer.

[mweb08]

Usage rate refers to how many possessions a player uses.

USG: Usage Rate - the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace)

Kobe led the league.

[Pedro Cerrano]

How can you possibly know if this is a reliable stat?

[mweb08]

How can you possibly know if this is a reliable stat?

Reliable in what way?

It's not perfect, but I think it does a pretty good job of determining how much a guy factors into a teams offense.

[Pedro Cerrano]

I can appreciate the time and effort the person (Hollinger?) put into creating this formula but it appears to be too bloated of an equation for its own good.

Either way, you won't get any argument from me about Kobe shooting too much. For me it's simple. If he's the scoring champ, he gets on the 1st team.

[mweb08]

I'll make potentially my final point on this since as always, neither of us are changing our mind...

I don't get the line of thinking that basically says that the Lakers would be better if Kobe shot less, but the more he shoots the better he is.

[Pedro Cerrano]

I don't believe that the more he shoots the better he is. All I'm saying is if he wins the scoring title it will be very hard to leave him off of the 1st team. It's happened in the past, but rarely. That's my only real point here.

[mweb08]

I don't believe that the more he shoots the better he is. All I'm saying is if he wins the scoring title it will be very hard to leave him off of the 1st team. It's happened in the past, but rarely. That's my only real point here.

But that's really what you're saying and when you put 2 and 2 together. You are not using the more time on the court argument for Kobe, so for you to put him on the first team, you're saying (at least you should be because that's what this honor is about) he's better than Wade and any other guard besides Paul. And the reason you're giving for that is because he may win the scoring title, and the reason he may win it is because he shoots too much.