76 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

I was exaggerating to make the point. Many were saying he was going to be the 5th most important reliever. He's become right on par with Hunter, O'Day, and JJ.

 

I'll refrain from derailing this.

[bnickle]

He's good at winning games. 

 

I honestly can't believe you're acting like this. You are constantly on Joe's nuts (just like I am) and you constantly say, all he has done since he's been in the league is win. Well, guess who his head coach has been for all of those wins? He's in historic company. And don't give me some BS about how good the team has been. Talent doesn't always equal chemistry and winning. 

 

And good for him for losing control. The officiating in this league is downright pitiful. 

He has rode Joe and the defenses coattails all along. We talked about this last week in a PM. I believe Billick would have been just as good if not better had he not been fired before '08. I truly believe you could have put a good number of coaches in Harbaugh's spot in '08 and you would have got essentially the same results. He's a mediocre coach.

[bnickle]

I must have missed when everyone said KRod was going to be a mop-up guy when that trade was made, but that's neither here nor there concerning the Ravens.

 

Anyway, excellent point Pete regarding how Nickle makes such a big deal of Flacco's record, but apparently doesn't care much about Harbaugh's; even though, I think it's safe to say that a head coach should be judged on their record more-so than a QB. I'm sure some disagree, though.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen. The QB is the one out on the field playing the single most important position in all of sports. I don't know what to tell you or the people who think winning isn't the most important thing for a QB. An NFL coach more than any other sport is just along for the ride. The OC and DC do all the playcalling and schemes. At least for most teams. Some HC call their own plays and or install their own schemes.

[bnickle]

Trust me, I'll be betting the Ravens next week and the line has a better chance to be over 7 than under. I'm happy to bet you if you'd like. The Thursday night game last year ended up with a close final score but the game was never in question. That could always happen. But at no point do I expect to be sitting in the stands next week worried that the Ravens will lose the game. You name the bet. 

I bet you its very much a game with say 6 min left in the 4th . 1 possession game.

[mweb08]

That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen. The QB is the one out on the field playing the single most important position in all of sports. I don't know what to tell you or the people who think winning isn't the most important thing for a QB. An NFL coach more than any other sport is just along for the ride. The OC and DC do all the playcalling and schemes. At least for most teams. Some HC call their own plays and or install their own schemes.

 

You're such a nice guy. 

 

Of course you're confusing importance and my point, which is how one should be judged.

 

You judge a QB on his play. His play has a significant role in the team success, but it doesn't make sense to judge a QB based on the teams record, at least not that much. A QB has nothing to do with how good his defense and special teams is and doesn't control how talented the rest of his offense is either. So judge him on how well he does his job, not on how well everyone around him does theirs. 

 

A head coach is responsible for the entire team and he obviously doesn't play, so you judge him mostly on his record.

 

Of course with both you look at the talent/coaches around him to adjust accordingly.

[bnickle]

BTW tonight is an example of why you cant go all crazy with the offense this year. I never understood the people saying let Joe throw 40 times a game and really open it way up.

 

 

This offense isn't efficient enough to try and get too cute with the up tempo no huddle stuff. A couple of  3 and outs in a row and the defense is out on the field sucking wind.

 

 

Part of it is not having a great receiving corp but I'm also the first one to tell you guys that Joe can get inconsistent as well. He'll sometimes make a really questionable throw and can lose his accuracy at times. He's never been or will never bee Brees, Manning, brady, Rodgers. Someone who has complete control to do whatever he wants and throw the ball all over. It isn't the winning formula for him. However, that also doesn't make him a game manager either, which so many people still want to call him. He has tremendous tools and undoubtedly has showed he can win games for the team if and when needed to rely on his arm. it just shouldn't be the gameplan to rely almost solelyon his arm every week.

[bnickle]

You're such a nice guy. 

 

Of course you're confusing importance and my point, which is how one should be judged.

 

You judge a QB on his play. His play has a significant role in the team success, but it doesn't make sense to judge a QB based on the teams record, at least not that much. A QB has nothing to do with how good his defense and special teams is and doesn't control how talented the rest of his offense is either. So judge him on how well he does his job, not on how well everyone around him does theirs. 

 

A head coach is responsible for the entire team and he obviously doesn't play, so you judge him mostly on his record.

 

Of course with both you look at the talent/coaches around him to adjust accordingly.

And some Qbs are asked to do more than others with more or less talent. As much as you want to praise QB rating or especially QBR it doesn't even tell half the story. Some of it but nowhere near enough. As I just said above, i'll be the first to tell you and have always told anybody who would listen that Flacco isn't an elite QB. If elite is the top 5 QB territory than Flacco isn't elite. He gets the job done way more often than not which is why he has such a great record. I think wins are easily the most important stat for a QB.  There is a reason why Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, and on down the line make the playoffs so consistently and win many more games than they lose.

[PD24]

I bet you its very much a game with say 6 min left in the 4th . 1 possession game.

 

I'll give you 7 points like you said originally. You name the price.

[mweb08]

So record tells you more about a QB than does the stats? Or watching them play? Oh, and you realize those 4 guys you mention have the best stats too right? But Brees was a mediocre at best QB last year right? I mean the team was below .500, forget that his head coach was suspended and the D sucked. If the Ravens go 8-8 this year because the receivers suck, the D takes a while to gel, the ST regresses, etc, will Joe be a worse QB than he was previously, even going all the way back to his rookie year? Or will the team around him just not be as good?

 

I guess you really like Andy Dalton and Matt Schaub a lot more than you let on. Mark Sanchez was quite good earlier in his career too. Oh, and those running QB's you love so much in the Gang of Four all had good win loss records too. Vince Young too.

 

You act like such a QB know it all, so why not just judge them by how they actually play? You have that ability right? To watch a game and judge how well a QB played? If so, why muddle that with how well the rest of the roster performed and how the coaching staff did?

[PD24]

He has rode Joe and the defenses coattails all along. We talked about this last week in a PM. I believe Billick would have been just as good if not better had he not been fired before '08. I truly believe you could have put a good number of coaches in Harbaugh's spot in '08 and you would have got essentially the same results. He's a mediocre coach.

 

So I guess Joe's progression as a QB has had nothing to do with his head coach, right? It's amazing that you attribute 100% of the team's success since 2008 to a rookie QB out of Delaware and a defense that was a total massacre in 2007. When they win, he rides the coat tails of Joe and the defense. When they lose like tonight, he's losing control, is an awful in game manager and is being exposed. 

 

Come on man. At least be somewhat logical if you're going to make an argument like this.

[bnickle]

So record tells you more about a QB than does the stats? Or watching them play? Oh, and you realize those 4 guys you mention have the best stats too right? But Brees was a mediocre at best QB last year right? I mean the team was below .500, forget that his head coach was suspended and the D sucked. If the Ravens go 8-8 this year because the receivers suck, the D takes a while to gel, the ST regresses, etc, will Joe be a worse QB than he was previously, even going all the way back to his rookie year? Or will the team around him just not be as good?

 

I guess you really like Andy Dalton and Matt Schaub a lot more than you let on. Mark Sanchez was quite good earlier in his career too. Oh, and those running QB's you love so much in the Gang of Four all had good win loss records too. Vince Young too.

 

You act like such a QB know it all, so why not just judge them by how they actually play? You have that ability right? To watch a game and judge how well a QB played? If so, why muddle that with how well the rest of the roster performed and how the coaching staff did?

Observation is the best tool. I would have always told you Sanchez sucked even when he was winning games. I've been on record saying someone like Schaub and Dalton don't have what it takes to win a SB. I guess they could be a Trent Dilfer type if their defense was really dominant. They aren't going to carry an offense like Joe did last year or like he did in the AFC Cham game two years ago. So in that sense, winning isn't the only thing. You happy, you got me there. That said, QB is still the most important position in sports and you cant deny 5 years in a row. 9 postseason wins at 28 yrs old, a SB ring, etc,etc

 

 

 

It all catches up to you eventually if you really are a poor to mediocre QB. It caught up with Vince Young, it caught up with Mark Sanchez, it will catch up with Matt Schaub, (not that he wasn't a 7-8 win QB numerous times before his defense got really, really good last year).

 

 

And you know what, it'll catch up with Flacco to a point too because he cant carry a team tot the playoffs like the HOF caliber Qbs in this league. I've always said its a matter of time until he misses the playoffs just like Big Ben and Eli. The two QBs I closely associate him. That said, there is a reason why these guys make the playoffs more often than they don't. there is a reason they raise their game in the playoffs and have rings on their fingers. There are guys whoyou just call winners despite not having flashy numbers. One day you'll get that through your head, or not.

[PD24]

Observation is the best tool. I would have always told you Sanchez sucked even when he was winning games. I've been on record saying someone like Schaub and Dalton don't have what it takes to win a SB. I guess they could be a Trent Dilfer type if their defense was really dominant. They aren't going to carry an offense like Joe did last year or like he did in the AFC Cham game two years ago. So in that sense, winning isn't the only thing. You happy, you got me there. That said, QB is still the most important position in sports and you cant deny 5 years in a row. 9 postseason wins at 28 yrs old, a SB ring, etc,etc

 

 

 

It all catches up to you eventually if you really are a poor to mediocre QB. It caught up with Vince Young, it caught up with Mark Sanchez, it will catch up with Matt Schaub, (not that he wasn't a 7-8 win QB numerous times before his defense got really, really good last year).

 

 

And you know what, it'll catch up with Flacco to a point too because he cant carry a team tot the playoffs like the HOF caliber Qbs in this league. I've always said its a matter of time until he misses the playoffs just like Big Ben and Eli. The two QBs I closely associate him. That said, there is a reason why these guys make the playoffs more often than they don't. there is a reason they raise their game in the playoffs and have rings on their fingers. There are guys who just call winners despite not having flashy numbers. One day you'll get that through your head(maybe).

 

One thing I'll say is that you make an interesting point about Flacco being inconsistent. See, I've always been someone who has wanted them to run an offense like they did in the first half. Honestly, I think people in general are way too critical looking back. For example, no one said a word about Flacco throwing 32 times in the first half when the Ravens were up 17-14. If the Ravens would have had that same exact 2nd half and won 34-28 and he threw it 62 times and Rice ran it 18 times or whatever, no one would have said anything. But since they lost, you go back and say they can't win a game like that, even though Ray Rice not running the ball didn't have anything to do with the second half.

 

I do agree that he doesn't have the pinpoint accuracy that Brady and Manning have when they are running the up-tempo, but saying the Ravens can't win by playing that way isn't accurate IMO and it's just an excuse when they play bad when you're (Ravens fans in general) are trying to place the blame on someone or some aspect of the team. Same thing happened in 2011. But shockingly, no one cared when he came out firing in the 2nd half of the NE game.

[bnickle]

So I guess Joe's progression as a QB has had nothing to do with his head coach, right? It's amazing that you attribute 100% of the team's success since 2008 to a rookie QB out of Delaware and a defense that was a total massacre in 2007. When they win, he rides the coat tails of Joe and the defense. When they lose like tonight, he's losing control, is an awful in game manager and is being exposed. 

 

Come on man. At least be somewhat logical if you're going to make an argument like this.

Oh absolutely Flacco is the biggest reason this team has found consistency since '08. Of course, not 100% but easily the biggest reason for the consistency vs the Billick era.  Billick had 1 good QB season his whole time in Baltimore and that was in '06 when he won 13 games. And hell, McNair was solid but nothing special. If Billick had not been fired he would still be the coach today and would have at least one more ring on his finger. I truly believe that.

 

 

 

I'm being consistent and logical. I don't think he is a great coach. This isn't the first time that he has messed up with roster or game management. Talent overcame it in the past. He has less wiggle room this year. His mistakes will probably be magnified. BTW.....just one example is the horrible decision to go with Hauchska in '09 as the kicker. A decision that cost us the divison and a much better chance in the playoffs. I know you were upset with that one. This isn't me overreacting to one game and one mistake.

[bnickle]

One thing I'll say is that you make an interesting point about Flacco being inconsistent. See, I've always been someone who has wanted them to run an offense like they did in the first half. Honestly, I think people in general are way too critical looking back. For example, no one said a word about Flacco throwing 32 times in the first half when the Ravens were up 17-14. If the Ravens would have had that same exact 2nd half and won 34-28 and he threw it 62 times and Rice ran it 18 times or whatever, no one would have said anything. But since they lost, you go back and say they can't win a game like that, even though Ray Rice not running the ball didn't have anything to do with the second half.

 

I do agree that he doesn't have the pinpoint accuracy that Brady and Manning have when they are running the up-tempo, but saying the Ravens can't win by playing that way isn't accurate IMO and it's just an excuse when they play bad when you're (Ravens fans in general) are trying to place the blame on someone or some aspect of the team. Same thing happened in 2011. But shockingly, no one cared when he came out firing in the 2nd half of the NE game.

 He also could have easily had two Ints in the first half. Listen, I trust Joe's arm if we need to go that route but he isn't a guy that can absolutely control the LOS like Brady or Manning. He isn't super efficient  like those guys either. He also doesn't make "playground" type plays like Rodgers or Big Ben. He really needs the players around him to do their jobs. When they do, he does his job  well. However, he can't make plays out of nothing like Ben or Rodgers or one of the "mobile" QBs and he isn't super efficient enough like Brady or Manning to overcome guys dropping 5-6 balls a game. So he's a guy with very good tools but somewhat in a box.

[PD24]

Oh absolutely Flacco is the biggest reason this team has found consistency since '08. Of course, not 100% but easily the biggest reason for the consistency vs the Billick era.  Billick had 1 good QB season his whole time in Baltimore and that was in '06 when he won 13 games. And hell, McNair was solid but nothing special. If Billick had not been fired he would still be the coach today and would have at least one more ring on his finger. I truly believe that.

 

 

 

I'm being consistent and logical. I don't think he is a great coach. This isn't the first time that he has messed up with roster or game management. Talent overcame it in the past. He has less wiggle room this year. His mistakes will probably be magnified. BTW.....just one example is the horrible decision to go with Hauchska in '09 as the kicker. A decision that cost us the divison and a much better chance in the playoffs. I know you were upset with that one. This isn't me overreacting to one game and one mistake.

 

Agree with Hauschka. Look, I love Brian Billick. I've said that several times. Harbaugh has grown on me because the guy just keeps winning. And it's so easy to point to his talent and the structure of the organization, but then I see teams like the Eagles (coached by your boy Andy Reid) and the Giants (under another one of your boys), who have all the talent in the world but who can't win. Look at Pittsburgh last year. 

 

Sure, no coach can win without a good QB...the Dilfer/Brad Johnson era is long gone. So overall, CLEARLY, Joe has had more to do with this team's success than Harbaugh. If you put a gun to Steve's head and said pick one Harbs or Joe, well, Jim would have a new special teams coach. That said, Harbaugh runs the ship and deserves a tremendous amount of credit for having a 11-5, 9-7, 12-4, 12-4, and 10-6 team with 9 playoff wins, 3 AFC Championship game appearances and a SB.

Then I see other teams that are clearly loaded and very good like Atlanta who basically does what the Ravens do in the regular season, maybe a tick better, and then totally shit the bed in the playoffs. So not only should Harbaugh get credit for keeping a steady consistent winner, but he also wins when he gets to the playoffs. At a historic pace. 

 

Instead of looking for every reason/excuse/lucky break in the book as to why Harbaugh has won, I'll just put my ego aside and my fondness for Brian aside and just give the guy kudos for winning games, which is the bottom line in sports.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Well, some of the preseason concerns came to bear tonight, especially on offense. There still isn't anyone behind Torrey Smith you can trust, and the OL is obviously one injury away from being a disaster. I'll hold off on judging the defense, just because I don't think there is any way they could be worse than they were tonight.....God, I hope I'm right though. At least there were some decent performances by some on the DL. And I'll try to hold my tongue on Harbaugh too, because I'm still mad as hell at him....the game was all downhill after his failure.

[PD24]

Even a team like GB. You mentioned McCarthy. They had a magical SB run, much like the Ravens, and they've had great regular seasons the past 2 years with pretty much the undisputed best QB in the game right now, but then they get in the playoffs and they lose. The Giants game they lost was soooooo much worse than any playoff game under Harbaugh ain't even funny. And they had #1 seed home field advantage against a 9-7 Giants team with the best QB in the world and they couldn't win. 

 

Sean Payton has 1 SB, 1 NFC game appearance, and other than that all he's done in the playoffs is beat the Detroit Lions at home. He's also gone 2 consecutive years missing the playoffs after they made their first NFCCG, which is twice as many missed playoff years as Harbs has. He also has had a top 4 QB in the game for his entire tenure. 

[bnickle]

Here is what I'll give you Dilutis. The bottom line is winning football games. John has won football games. Therefore, he deserves all the money and accolades he gets. I'm not calling for him to be fired, I'm just saying I don't think he is anything special.

[PD24]

Here is what I'll give you Dilutis. The bottom line is winning football games. John has won football games. Therefore, he deserves all the money and accolades he gets. I'm not calling for him to be fired, I'm just saying I don't think he is anything special.

 

Fair enough, but I have no idea what leads you to that conclusion looking back on his first 5 years. John Harbaugh would get hired so fast if he was available your head would spin. 

[Markus]

That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen. The QB is the one out on the field playing the single most important position in all of sports .

I dunno. Being a goalie in soccer, or football if you will, is a pretty important position. I mean, with no goalie there'd be lots of goals scored.