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#21 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:31 AM

I don't really think the NIT is any less quality of basketball than the majority of Terps games this year.

All depends on how seriously the players take it. The first year Maryland was in the NIT, they played hard and made it all the way to the semifinals in Madison Square Garden. The next year they didn't care and lost the first game at home.

I think with this young of a team, that they'd play hard and perhaps could get some needed experience out of it.

I'd certainly watch the games.

Well, that's certainly a ringing endorsement. :lol:

And yeah, I'd watch, just not if anything else good is on. I guess my point of my original post on the matter is that because I feel that way, I certainly wouldn't blame any fans for choosing not to attend the game. It's just not remotely close to a hot ticket. But I agree with you in that I don't see anything productive coming from boycotting the game or anything like that.

#22 Mike B

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:50 AM

I wouldn't change much up right now. However in the NIT, I'd play Len less since he doesn't look to be around for next year.

Not playing a player heading for the NBA, sends the wrong message to guys on the team and players being recruited now and in the future. I have had a little expierience being a round kids talking to college programs. A competitor will use that against the coach. They will tell the kid who thinks he has what it takes to go to the NBA, don't go to Maryland, they benched Len because they knew he was applying to the league. Kids all think they are NBA players, and they listen to that stuff.
In addition, Len while not playing well right now, seems to be working hard. No need to punish him IMO.
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#23 Mackus

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:00 AM

Not playing a player heading for the NBA, sends the wrong message to guys on the team and players being recruited now and in the future. I have had a little expierience being a round kids talking to college programs. A competitor will use that against the coach. They will tell the kid who thinks he has what it takes to go to the NBA, don't go to Maryland, they benched Len because they knew he was applying to the league. Kids all think they are NBA players, and they listen to that stuff.
In addition, Len while not playing well right now, seems to be working hard. No need to punish him IMO.

Agree completely. Benching or significantly limiting Len in the NIT would be an absolutely pointless and dumb move from the team's perspective for several reasons and a reprehensible move from the perspective of punishing Len when he's done nothing wrong. It'd be an incredibly petty "I dumped her, she didn't dump me" sort of decision.

It's also a great way to absolutely ensure that he goes pro. I think it's a lock already anyways so it's not a major factor, but if any part of Len is considering coming back and you bench him in the NIT, that possibility goes right out the window.

#24 Oriole85

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:31 AM

Not playing a player heading for the NBA, sends the wrong message to guys on the team and players being recruited now and in the future. I have had a little expierience being a round kids talking to college programs. A competitor will use that against the coach. They will tell the kid who thinks he has what it takes to go to the NBA, don't go to Maryland, they benched Len because they knew he was applying to the league. Kids all think they are NBA players, and they listen to that stuff.
In addition, Len while not playing well right now, seems to be working hard. No need to punish him IMO.

I'm fine being in the minority on this one. I wouldn't want to hurt his draft stock and I would want to give the team the best chance to win. I just think you want to play for next year more in it. I'd hope Turgeon would respond to this, I don't plan on being in the NIT again so if you want to play in the tourney, play for me.
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#25 Mike in STL

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:40 AM

Did he make an excuse for those losses? I don't remember hearing one, aside from we didn't play well enough, which isn't an excuse it's a reality.

I don't think you can judge what he's telling the team based on his one-sentence summary of the overall message.


Fair enough. I was using no excuses as a figure of speech. I know he's not making excuses for his team shortcomings. Trust me, I'm not about to say he should be fired or anything. I know they are young, and in college athletics it takes time to build a team. Gary pretty much left him a pile of problem child garbage.

I'm going vent just a little more. Sorry. Now, I'm not a coach, so maybe I shouldn't speculate on how to run a team, and I'm not even talking baout Xs and Os. Let me use Alex Len as an example. I'm very critical of him because he's suppossedly an NBA lottery pick. Not even picking on his lack of physicality, but more so his lack of hustle. He is the last player down the court, every time. Taking his sweet ass time jogging down there. Sometimes his own team or the other team gets a shot off before he even reaches the paint to get a rebound. If he makes it down there he plants his feet like he's knee deep in quicksand on the edge of the paint. Does Turgeon get in his ass about not hustling, or not creating a shot for himself? I don't know. Does Turg jump his shit and does Len not care to break a sweat becasue he sees millions of dollars in the near future as long as he doesnt get hurt? Maybe. Probably. If Turg is getting on his case about it, he's not doing anything about it. Len could be the best player in the ACC if he wanted to be. Theres been games when we say that they didn't get the ball to Len enough. Well, they aren't going to pass it to him when he has a guy draped all over him and he doesn't move.

Can't bench him either, for all of the reasons you guys already discussed. He must have worked hard to put on that extra muscle in the offseason. Where did that dedication go since the Kentucky game?

I just think that coaches are responsible for making adjustments, for fixing problems. I saw a UNC game a couple years ago, @ GA Tech as a matter of fact. Tar Heels trailed by at least 20, Roy Williams sat all 5 starters and put the bottom five guys on his bench in the game. Our equivelent of Susskind, Barks, etc... For the 2 or 3 minutes these guys were in the game, he had his back turned to the court and was coaching up his 5 star players. Basically a "wake the f*** up" type moment. UNC erased that 20 point deficit. Ultimately they lost by a couple points. Yeah, they lost, but Coach Williams put his team in the best position he could to win the game.

If a ball player swings at three pitches in the dirt, and you tell him to lay off that junk, and the next at bat he lays off the pitches in the dirt, you did your job as a coach. If your down by 20 and you do something to motivate your team and cut down on silly mistakes and they erase that deficit, you did your job as a coach. When you fire your offensive coordinator because you feel he's dragging a Super Bowl caliber team down, you did your job as a coach. So maybe what Turg is trying to teach is not getting through to his guys. Is that on him or them? I mean, what is he teaching these guys if they keep reverting to the same bad habits over and over again?

Also, I know I was venting, but I don't approve of boycotting the NIT games if they host one. That would be bad and send the wrong message. Some people will show up, thats cool. I guess a better choice of words maybe that if they play in the NIT in front of 1,000 people, it'll leave them hungrier for more next season.
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#26 Mackus

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:00 PM

I disagree that Len lacks hustle.

He doesn't get down the court on defense right away because he's supposed to set up at the top of the key to help out on the pick and roll that initiates most possessions. Turgeon's defensive style has the big man flash out and drive the PG back up the court, with the other big underneath rolling over to defend the rolling pick-setter. Rarely does the center just go underneath and set up down low defensively.

I think he plays hard and does what Turgeon asks of him. I don't think he's very strong yet, even with the added muscle, which is why he often settles for fade away shots instead of getting to the basket even against smaller defenders. I can't remember any time this season where I thought he wasn't hustling. Plenty of times he's not made a strong play, fading away or getting beat on a rebound, but I don't recall thinking he got beat because he wasn't trying hard enough.

#27 Mike in STL

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:37 PM

Just my opinion. Going from one end to the other, he looks like he lollygags to me. Maybe there is a method to it.
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#28 BSLMattJergensen

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:50 PM

Alex Len plays hard. He frustrates fans when showing strong post moves one game and fadeaway jumpers the next. His inconsistency, much like the entire team can be maddening to watch at times. That said benching or limiting his minutes would be a dreadful move on Turgeon's part. Even though it seems like a foregone conclusion that Len is off ro the NBA he's still Maryland's best option to help them win now. Regardless of how you see an NIT berth it is important to THIS team.

Turgeon is still building his program and let's not forget that this year is his first class. The post-season could be a valuable springboard into next year. Experience and confidence are needed for this group.

As much as I will always love Gary Williams he did his university's program no favors by the way he chose to retire in May after Jordan Williams declared for the draft. The national search for a replacement would immediatley put them behind the recruiting process as they'd be forced to coach essentially what they had. Turge convinced Nick Faust to stay and inherited the raw Len, while Sterling Gibbs chose Texas. Let's not forget that Williams last game was a blowout loss to the Dukies and no NCCA berth. Prospects didn't look to improve once Williams left.

The ultimate goal for the Terps to be a nationally relevant, top twenty five, NCAA team but it's going to take some time to get back to that level. Turgeon needs at least a few years of his recruits to see if he is the man for the job.

#29 glenn__davis

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:01 PM

I don't think Len physically dogs it, but I do think there's not the same mental focus when it's not a big, prime-time matchup. I just can't rationalize playing so well against the likes of Nerlens Noel and Mason Plumlee, and then being so invisible against teams with no frontcourt like UVA and BC. Particularly in college, you need to bring your own motivation sometimes, and that's something that Len - and the rest of the team for that matter, with the possible exception of Cleare - has/have not been able to do.

In other words - if he had the same skillset, but the motor and intensity of Tyler Hansbrough, he'd be a much more productive player. Now that's setting the bar way high because Hansbrough had the best motor of anyone I've seen in college bball, but the point is that I do think there's an intensity issue with Len.

Now having said all of that, absolutely, he should play as much as possible down the stretch. I don't really see how limiting his minutes does anyone any good, and as others have mentioned I think it sends a very poor message to others.

I'd like to see Allen run point most of the time. I'd like to see Faust off the ball more, because I do think his jump shot has improved this year, and I'd like to see him continue to develop that. And I'd definitely like to see Cleare and Mitchell get more of Padgett's minutes.

#30 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:16 PM

I think people are operating under the assumption that Len is actually good... when I just don't think he is. He's decent, he has immense talent, but he's not there yet. Hasn't he only been playing basketball for like 5 or 6 years now?

#31 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:40 PM

I think people are operating under the assumption that Len is actually good... when I just don't think he is. He's decent, he has immense talent, but he's not there yet. Hasn't he only been playing basketball for like 5 or 6 years now?


He is certainly not dominating college, and his draft prospects are based on his potential more than his results; but I do think he is still 'good' now.

12.3 ppg, 8.1 boards, 2 blocks, .543 FG%... double figures scoring in 20 of the 28 games... at-least 7 rebounds in 21 of the 28 games....

#32 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:59 PM

He is certainly not dominating college, and his draft prospects are based on his potential more than his results; but I do think he is still 'good' now.

12.3 ppg, 8.1 boards, 2 blocks, .543 FG%... double figures scoring in 20 of the 28 games... at-least 7 rebounds in 21 of the 28 games....

I guess it's how you define good. He's not in the top 100 in scoring, probably not in the top 150 but I couldn't pull a ranking that big on ESPN.com. Rebounding he's tied for 98th despite his size. I'll settle on decent, but I just don't consider him a good player as of yet. Of course the guard issues have certainly had an impact, so I'm not going to have a problem with anyone who wants to call him "good".

#33 Mackus

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 03:11 PM

I guess it's how you define good. He's not in the top 100 in scoring, probably not in the top 150 but I couldn't pull a ranking that big on ESPN.com. Rebounding he's tied for 98th despite his size. I'll settle on decent, but I just don't consider him a good player as of yet. Of course the guard issues have certainly had an impact, so I'm not going to have a problem with anyone who wants to call him "good".

In Jordan Williams' sophomore year, he averaged 16.9 and 12.8 in 32.5 minutes, plus that team played at a little bit higher pace (averaged 5.5 ppg more than this year).

Len averages 12.3 and 8.1 in 26.4 minutes. Scale up the minutes to match and that's 15.1 ppg and 10.0 rpg average. It's not exactly fair to do that, since Williams played more because he was better and more important, but the basic comparison is there. Jordan was obviously the better college basketball player, he was pretty damn dominant, but Len isn't too far off in terms of scoring and rebounding impact.

I suppose it's just semantics, but I think he's certainly better than just a "decent" player.

#34 bnickle

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 03:31 PM

Len is a good NCAA basketball player who would benefit from teammates who could get him the ball at the right time on properly run pick and roll/pops and when he actually gets deep enough on the block. Having some reliable shooters so teams wouldn't completely collapse on him would help too. He would undoubtedly be better with better talent around him. Again, he still has his issues. He has to get smarter and stronger but even next year in the NBA you'll see how much better he'll look playing with players that can set him up properly.



BTW.....I'm done with the rest of the year. I drives me crazy watching stupid basketball and I refuse to subject myself to anymore of it this year from this group of players.

#35 Mike B

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 04:30 PM

Fair enough. I was using no excuses as a figure of speech. I know he's not making excuses for his team shortcomings. Trust me, I'm not about to say he should be fired or anything. I know they are young, and in college athletics it takes time to build a team. Gary pretty much left him a pile of problem child garbage.

I'm going vent just a little more. Sorry. Now, I'm not a coach, so maybe I shouldn't speculate on how to run a team, and I'm not even talking baout Xs and Os. Let me use Alex Len as an example. I'm very critical of him because he's suppossedly an NBA lottery pick. Not even picking on his lack of physicality, but more so his lack of hustle. He is the last player down the court, every time. Taking his sweet ass time jogging down there. Sometimes his own team or the other team gets a shot off before he even reaches the paint to get a rebound. If he makes it down there he plants his feet like he's knee deep in quicksand on the edge of the paint. Does Turgeon get in his ass about not hustling, or not creating a shot for himself? I don't know. Does Turg jump his shit and does Len not care to break a sweat becasue he sees millions of dollars in the near future as long as he doesnt get hurt? Maybe. Probably. If Turg is getting on his case about it, he's not doing anything about it. Len could be the best player in the ACC if he wanted to be. Theres been games when we say that they didn't get the ball to Len enough. Well, they aren't going to pass it to him when he has a guy draped all over him and he doesn't move.

Can't bench him either, for all of the reasons you guys already discussed. He must have worked hard to put on that extra muscle in the offseason. Where did that dedication go since the Kentucky game?

I just think that coaches are responsible for making adjustments, for fixing problems. I saw a UNC game a couple years ago, @ GA Tech as a matter of fact. Tar Heels trailed by at least 20, Roy Williams sat all 5 starters and put the bottom five guys on his bench in the game. Our equivelent of Susskind, Barks, etc... For the 2 or 3 minutes these guys were in the game, he had his back turned to the court and was coaching up his 5 star players. Basically a "wake the f*** up" type moment. UNC erased that 20 point deficit. Ultimately they lost by a couple points. Yeah, they lost, but Coach Williams put his team in the best position he could to win the game.

If a ball player swings at three pitches in the dirt, and you tell him to lay off that junk, and the next at bat he lays off the pitches in the dirt, you did your job as a coach. If your down by 20 and you do something to motivate your team and cut down on silly mistakes and they erase that deficit, you did your job as a coach. When you fire your offensive coordinator because you feel he's dragging a Super Bowl caliber team down, you did your job as a coach. So maybe what Turg is trying to teach is not getting through to his guys. Is that on him or them? I mean, what is he teaching these guys if they keep reverting to the same bad habits over and over again?

Also, I know I was venting, but I don't approve of boycotting the NIT games if they host one. That would be bad and send the wrong message. Some people will show up, thats cool. I guess a better choice of words maybe that if they play in the NIT in front of 1,000 people, it'll leave them hungrier for more next season.


Not picking on you, we are all frustrated with maryland but I see things a lot different then you. First Len, I do not see any lack of effort. i think he plays soft especially around the rim but he works hard on the court. i really do not see him being the last man down on O or D much. I think part of the problem, a large part is the Maryland guards do not have the patience or basketball IQ to allow Len and the other bigs to get to theeir spot and then get them the ball in the proper position. Alex needs to be more forceful in doing that and as I mentioned more aggressive around the rim. He tries to often to lay the ball up softly. You are 7'1", slam the damn thing down. That however is not because he is giving a lack of effort. On D you see him scrambling often because Turgeon uses his big men to show off picks. Len is actually very active in that aspect, but he does have a tendency to pick up cheap fouls off showing and also turns his back to much in scrambling back to his man.
One other thing, Len is not a lottery pick because of his play, he is a lottery pick because he is 7'1", and a good athlete who should be better as he gets older. Semantics but there is a difference.
I really think Turgeon is subbing too much. He is frustrated with the team but he yanks guys after every mistake. Guys like Faust, Allen, Howard, Cleare etc are in and out so much, they have to be looking over their shoulders.
marylands problems are their guards. Everyone is flawed to some extent, and not one gets them into an offensive flow. It is not only the turnovers, it is the wasted possesions. The wild shots, the 1on 3 fast breaks that result in stupid or blocked shots. Maryland has good bigs but they are never set up properly.

If Roddy Peters is as good as advertised, and if Allen improves as much as I think he will from year 1 to 2, next year will be much better.
I also think that Layman, Allen and Evan Smotrycz ( a stretch 4) will give Maryland much better outside shooting next year which will make the opposition clear the paint more. Watch the Terps opponnents, there are very few trips where 4 or 5 defenders do not have at least one foot in the paint.
better times are ahead.
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#36 Mike B

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 04:36 PM

One other quick point. For those that do not think point guards run college basketball tune in and watch what Barry Larkin's kid Shane does for Miami when they play Duke on Sunday. The kid is the best player in college basketball that no one knows. Terrific young point. Let's hope Peters does the same for next years Terp team
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#37 BSLMattJergensen

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:49 PM

One other quick point. For those that do not think point guards run college basketball tune in and watch what Barry Larkin's kid Shane does for Miami when they play Duke on Sunday. The kid is the best player in college basketball that no one knows. Terrific young point. Let's hope Peters does the same for next years Terp team


I think it's a great point. It can not be overstated how important point guard play is in college basketball.

#38 Mike B

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:13 PM

I think it's a great point. It can not be overstated how important point guard play is in college basketball.

Point guards win games in college BBall. If Peters is good, Maryland will be a lot better. Still would not be surprised if they brought in a JUCO guard next year.
I think P may go somewhere else.
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