55 replies to this topic

[Mackus]

Even getting past the system....his in game coaching decisions have been poor. Gary was a way better in game coach..it's not really close.

That's not really a fair comparison, though. Gary was one of the absolute best in-game coaches there were. Turgeon could be a very good in-game coach (and despite my complaints during several games this year, I do think he is one) and still not be particularly close to Gary.

[You Play to Win the Game]

That's not really a fair comparison, though. Gary was one of the absolute best in-game coaches there were. Turgeon could be a very good in-game coach (and despite my complaints during several games this year, I do think he is one) and still not be particularly close to Gary.

Well said, I agree with this to a 'T'.

[bnickle]

I think Turgeon has done a pretty mediocre job coaching this group but I would agree, based on what we've seen from these guys in terms of the things the coach doesn't have much impact on, that it would take a truly amazing coaching job to get them to be anything better than a bubble team.

I think Turgeon should have been able to get this team playing better and being on the right side of that bubble (and with a miracle maybe that could still happen), but the earlier expectations that this team could be a Sweet 16 or better team if we could just start knocking down shots and stop turning the ball over have obviously proven to be too lofty.

He desperately needs to get some more intelligent players into the system, and a PG if Peters is more of a combo-guard like Allen than a true point. I like what Layman brings in terms of court sense and being in the right place at the right time a lot, but nobody else really exhibits that sort of innate understanding that you'd like to see.

Right, you see these guys thinking too much on the court. It's like info overload and the game is moving too fast for them at times. Kind of like a QB that can't slow the game down. I guess the hope is that with so many underclassmen that they find a way to slow the game down as their college careers progress.

I mentioned this in a thread a few weeks ago but Turge is gonna have to find another guard out there to bring in for next year. Whether it's Juco, transfer, or a late HS signee he has to find someone that can handle the ball and control the team on the court. Even if he thinks Peters is that guy I think you need one more. Wells should be playing the 3 and Allen and Faust need to be off the ball. Period.

[Mackus]

Kind of like a QB that can't slow the game down.

I think this is a really good description of the team this season.

[bnickle]

Turge is a good in game coach. If you watch closely a lot of it is simply lack of execution. Again, fundamental stuff. Catch the ball, dribble the ball, pass the ball, shoot the ball. I see passes to open guys not being made so what happens is the clock shot runs down and we get a questionable look but if the correct pass was made at the correct time we'd have had an easy bucket(well maybe).

I see wide open shots being missed. When players find the right guy on the dribble drive I'm seeing way too many open jump shots being bricked. I think the team has gotten better as the season as gone on at dishing off the drive and not taking it too far but ultimately it doesn't matter if you can't knock odwn the open jumper.

- I see complaints about not getting the ball to Len enough, or not in the right spot. Well, first almost all teams are doubling Len, at least when he catches the ball really low on the block. Daring the Terps to make the correct pass to the open man and then knock down the open jumper. Again, two things the Terps aren't great at doing, passing and shooting. Second, Len isn't good enough at getting where he needs to get on the block. I think he's still too weak in his lower body and gets pushed off his spot and too far away from the hoop. that kills the team as ultimately he has to make a move or put up a shot outside of his range or he's not far away from the perimeter that when the double comes and he kicks it back out the defender is able to recover relatively easily.


Now, I agree that Turge probably could and should have got his rotation set earlier in the year. That roles should have been defined by now. If there is one big complaint that would be it. The big issues are the lack of execution and more specifically the skills and IQ of the players to execute.

As far as scheduling, Turge has admitted that he played a cupcake schedule on purpose. That he didn't think his team was going to be very good early in the year and he wanted to build up confidence and figure out who could play and such. Now, the opposing view is you have to test them regardless. Even if you think your going to get crushed its a learning experience. I see that POV and tend to lean towards it but I understand Turge's POV too. BTW... if Turge had a lot of questions about the team this year we as fans probably should've been more conservative in our projections. The coach is always going to know his team best.

[BSLChrisStoner]

If people want to jump on Turge, jump on Turge if that makes you feel better. Nobody would have made this group of players a NCAA tourny team. Add onto that everything else you see. I'm not going to argue that Turge hasn't made mistakes this year or that he's doing great job but he's considerably down the line when it comes to issues with this team this year.

I agree about the obvious limitations of the roster, but I disagree with the conclusions.

There is more than enough skill on this Maryland team to be an NCAAT team IMO. I don't think Turgeon has gotten enough out of the roster.

That said, he hasn't forgotten how to coach.

If Peters can come in and help run the offense (and I agree with your suggestion that another guard should be added), MD should still be a very dangerous team next year. Disappointments this year or not.

[bnickle]

Lets remember that we are probably an FSU win away from being on the right side of the bubble. We should have won both of those games but it's absolutely disgusting that we lost both games. In particular, the 2nd game was one we gave away by not executing down the stretch. Missed bunnies, missed FTs. That was 100% us not closing a game we had won.

[DJ MC]

I'm of two minds here.

On the one side, I see the obvious talent in the players on the team and I think back to how good Gary Williams was not only as an in-game coach but as a teacher. I can't help but feel he would have these players* performing at a higher level, if not a guaranteed tournament team.

*If someone wants to argue that Williams' deficiencies in recruiting wouldn't have given him this group of players, I'm certainly not going to argue against that point.

On the other side, they are a very, very young team: eleven of the fifteen players on the roster (and ten of the fourteen who see any PT) are freshmen and sophomores. There is a very good chance that any coaching simply hasn't taken effect yet. It doesn't help that arguably the three "worst" players on the team are Howard, Padgett and Faust, and they are the three main upperclassmen.

That's why I'm not going to criticize Turgeon too much. He brought in a lot of talent and gets a shot to show he can mold those players into a great team.

My biggest issue right now, that I only really was able to realize today, is that it seems like he's using too many players.

Right now, ten of the fourteen players who play have played in essentially every single game (Howard missed the FSU game). More importantly, all ten of those players are averaging more than ten minutes (actually, over 12) per game. That really seems like one or two too many.

To give three examples, I decided to look at Duke this year, and go back five years (just a random choice) and look at both Maryland and Duke.

The 2012-13 Duke team has only eleven players with any playing time this year. They have injuries to a couple of players, so ten have played in at least eleven games. Even so, the two players who have played in more games due to the injuries (Alex Murphy and Marshall Plumlee) are seeing less than seven minutes per game. Only eight players are playing 12 or more minutes.

The 2007-08 Terps and Blue Devils each only had eight players see more than ten minutes per game.

Turgeon likes to shuffle his lineup, both to start and throughout the game, which I don't blame him for. He could even view this season (if in private) as a throw-away year where he's just trying to get players experience playing in this league and not about the wins. If that is the case, fine.

However, if he does want to make the tournament, this is the time where he should seriously look and taking one guard (Faust or Howard) and one big (Padgett or Cleare, I guess) and severely cutting their playing time. That puts the most productive players on the court more often.

[SportsGuy]

Lets remember that we are probably an FSU win away from being on the right side of the bubble. We should have won both of those games but it's absolutely disgusting that we lost both games. In particular, the 2nd game was one we gave away by not executing down the stretch. Missed bunnies, missed FTs. That was 100% us not closing a game we had won.

No you aren't...maybe you were before today but you aren't now.

[bnickle]

No you aren't...maybe you were before today but you aren't now.

One FSU win and instead of having somewhere around a 10%-15% chance of making the playoffs as we are now, we are probably 35%-40%.


Assuming we finish .500 in conference( i think we will), the difference between 9-9 and 10-8 could be huge at the end of the year. Instead of needing to win the ACC tourny we'd possibly only need 2, maybe 3, wins.

[SportsGuy]

One FSU win and instead of having somewhere around a 10%-15% chance of making the playoffs as we are now, we are probably 35%-40%.

Yea, I think you are overrating that. FSU has been a disappointment. They aren't a great win.

I agree you would be in better shape but still out.

Lunardi had MD on his next 4 out list before the loss today.

[BSLMattJergensen]

I can clearly understand the disappointment and although I wasn't in the camp of those that had such high expectations at the start of the season I do feel that the team has underachieved.

There is plenty of blame to go around, players and staff simply haven't gotten it done. It's simple execution and basketball IQ that have often doomed the Terps this season. Today included getting beaten to loose balls, not reacting to pressure, poor defense (especially guarding the 3) and a general sense of sluggishness even with a lot at stake against a fellow bubble team.

Leadership on the floor has been missing all season. It doesn't help when you struggle to find a point guard and your two best players (Len/Wells) are consistently inconsistent and the power forward spot continues to be an issue. There is something to be said for intangibles as well as skillset. Here's hoping that Roddy Peters can bring something next season in multiple categories.

I've defended Turgeon because I think blaming the coach for a team's woes is often too easy. I read earlier in the thread that Turge should "run a different system". Well, what do you want him to run? A Princeton style? A wide open motion style, Bo Ryan's Swing? Most times it doesn't matter what you run but rather how you execute it as long as your personnel matches what you are trying to accomplish.

That said Turgeon has to bear some blame for how the season has progressed. He and his staff must coach up players that he recruited and player improvement is a two way street. I agree that the team wasn't tested enough in December. I agree that the rotation needs to be fleshed out by now and that a solid 8 maybe 9 should get the minutes. I think players have been so inconsistent that he shuffles the lineup in hopes someone will step up. It hasn't worked. I'd like to see him settle on a group (mostly those with the most upside) and ride out the bad with the good.

The Gary Williams comparisons are natural but also tiresome. Williams was a HOF coach who could X and O with the best and was known for getting the most out of above average talent. He had his flaws as well but his legacy in the fan's mind will always be better than it was. His circumstances were different but he didn't get to the NCAAs until his fifth season.

Next season will be a pivotal one in the Turgeon regime. The Terps will need to take some steps forward to prove that he was the right choice.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I've defended Turgeon because I think blaming the coach for a team's woes is often too easy. I read earlier in the thread that Turge should "run a different system". Well, what do you want him to run? A Princeton style? A wide open motion style, Bo Ryan's Swing? Most times it doesn't matter what you run but rather how you execute it as long as your personnel matches what you are trying to accomplish.

I want Turgeon to simply 'run'.

You went into the year knowing PG was the primary issue, and that aside from Aronhalt, Layman, and Allen; you lacked 'shooters.'

Neither Wells or Faust has much of a shot (though Wells 3pt shooting has increased lately, and was higher last year).
They are both outstanding open court players though.

If you can't shoot, you have to run a system which gives you more opportunities in transition. Besides Wells and Faust, Allen and Layman are also built for an open court game. None of your bigs are lumbering guys either. You can't get the ball to Len consistently in the post in a 1/2 court setting, so the goal should be getting him the ball ahead of the pack.

You are going 10 deep, so you have the depth to press and trap more.

Turgeon has wanted to play a 1/2 court game and slow the tempo. The current plan is obviously we are going to win on the boards, and play good 1/2 court defense. To his credit, he has the 2nd best rebounding team in the country. He has the 3rd best FG % defense in the country.

So, I can't say his plan does not have merit. If MD was pressing and trapping more, I'm sure their FG% defense would drop as they gave more easy baskets. I'm convinced though, that MD would have an easier time scoring.

The primary issue with MD is that they are 341st in the country in Turnover Margin. You can say that there is no way to overcome that. My thought is that if you can't hold on to the ball yourself, you have to create turnovers of your own. Sitting back in a 1/2 court defense does not accomplish that.

[BSLMattJergensen]

Now we discuss philosophy and as you've outlined here Coach Turge's concepts are about a more controlled tempo on offense and defense, winning the battle of the boards on defense, and playing tough 1/2 ct. man while not gambling.

Turge would be wise to modify his style a bit. I agree that they should run more and they should also execute better in their secondary break as well. As you mentioned above some pieces of his approach are bearing fruit (Defensive fg % and Rebounding margin) while the glaring need for improvement is in the turnover to assist ratio, which often kills you if you are a 1/2 ct team.

Personally I like using the break as your first offense and mixing in trapping and pressing depending on the situation.

Of course there are plenty of ways to be successful and Turge's style can work if he gets better PG play and recruits better shooters. In the meantime it will be interesting to see what change he implements, if any as we heard towards March.

The best coaches are ones that can adapt when neccessary to get the job done.

[Oriole85]

The Gary Williams comparisons are natural but also tiresome. Williams was a HOF coach who could X and O with the best and was known for getting the most out of above average talent. He had his flaws as well but his legacy in the fan's mind will always be better than it was. His circumstances were different but he didn't get to the NCAAs until his fifth season.

Next season will be a pivotal one in the Turgeon regime. The Terps will need to take some steps forward to prove that he was the right choice.

As you stated, the circumstances were way different with GW. Even though, GW didn't exactly leave Turgeon in a great spot, the former had it much tougher. I will also add, there was much more patience 20 years ago than there is today. Some of the great coaches like Wooden and Coach K, the latter by his own admission, would probably have been fired by today's standards.

I think we get stuck up in overusing terms like "big games" and "pivitol season," but I agree with you that next year could be a make-or-break year for Turgeon, barring the rest of this season and recruiting rankings. Three years is the standard now in college sports, you've had "enough" time (not really), to implement your own system and can't take credit or pass blame to your predecessor. If they went four straight years without an NCAA Tourney appearance(third under Turge), heads will start to roll.

All that said, I hope they'll look at the big picture next year when all is said and done. A few seasons ago, it looked like Tom Crean might be fired and Brad Stevens would take over, the former turned-it-around.

[You Play to Win the Game]

The best coaches are ones that can adapt when neccessary to get the job done.

I agree with this. There's always that debate of recruiting players who fit your system... but I think to get the best results, you need to recruit the best talent (and highest character talent) and tweak your system around that talent. That is where Turge has failed this year.