13 replies to this topic

[JeffLong]

Matt (Chicago)
In a recent interview, Dan Duquette says that the O's are in favor of letting SP prospects begin their mlb career in the bullpen. You've talked about this forever. Are you surprised it's actually happening?

Klaw (2:21 PM)
That's fantastic news. I hope the O's succeed with it and it spreads. I suspect it's a small key to keeping young pitchers healthy.


Jeff (Baltimore)
I'm surprised you had Tillman on your top 25 (albeit at 25). Were you surprised by his willingness to throw offspeed stuff when behind in the count? That's a bigger deal than the velocity IMO.

Klaw (2:26 PM)
Well, the velocity was necessary but not sufficient. Everything looked better to me at the end of the year. I saw him in AA for Bowie years ago and thought he'd be a clear #2 starter. This is the first stretch since then when he's looked like that guy again.

[SrMeowMeow]

Using SP prospects in the bullpen is a weird thing to carry a torch for. Isn't there a big tradeoff to consider? Sure, they get MLB experience without the pressure of a rotation spot or the challenge of having to go three times through a lineup, but they also don't get any experience as a starter and get in many fewer innings.

[JeffLong]

Using SP prospects in the bullpen is a weird thing to carry a torch for. Isn't there a big tradeoff to consider? Sure, they get MLB experience without the pressure of a rotation spot or the challenge of having to go three times through a lineup, but they also don't get any experience as a starter and get in many fewer innings.

There's definitely trade offs to each approach. I'll see if I can dig up some of Keith's methodology for a post here sometime soon.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I would imagine part of that would have to do with where team's are with their rotation. A lot of teams with good pitching prospects are bordering on desparate to insert them into their rotation. They may view it as hard to justify placing a valuable pitching prospect in the bullpen, when they need immediate rotation help. Maybe not, but just a thought.

[NewMarketSean]

I personally believe starting pitching prospects in the bullpen is a good idea. Learning to get MLB hitters out is beneficial, even if you only do it for one inning.

I also believe it can work well for guys who have pitched well in the minors, but struggle in the majors. We saw Matusz pitch lights out in the bullpen last year, being someone who was never able to be consistent, or healthy, as a SP. I also think the spot is good for Jake Arrieta too, since he's too good to keep down at Norfolk, but not consistent enough to be a SP.

But this is a product of having a good rotation. Otherwise, it would be 2010 all over again and these struggling guys would be in the rotation and lasting only 3-4 innings.

[JeffLong]

I would imagine part of that would have to do with where team's are with their rotation. A lot of teams with good pitching prospects are bordering on desparate to insert them into their rotation. They may view it as hard to justify placing a valuable pitching prospect in the bullpen, when they need immediate rotation help. Maybe not, but just a thought.

I believe, and don't take this as fact, that klaw advocates for guys to pitch in the MLB bullpen rather than sitting in AA or AAA for an extra year waiting to make an impact on the MLB club.

The Rays do this to some degree. Kris Medlen from the Braves is another good example.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I believe, and don't take this as fact, that klaw advocates for guys to pitch in the MLB bullpen rather than sitting in AA or AAA for an extra year waiting to make an impact on the MLB club.

The Rays do this to some degree. Kris Medlen from the Braves is another good example.

I gotcha... that definitely makes solid sense.

[Mackus]

SP breaking in as relievers is very good practice for their development, IMO. I don't know if switching them back and forth from the rotation to the pen is possibly more stressful on their arms, though. The downside of this approach, aside from any injury concerns, is that you end up using some valuable, cheap service time with your player as one of the last guys in your bullpen rather than starting every 5th day. I believe that this is why teams got away from that approach. It's not a great use of your resources, and it's no guarantee that they make a seamless transition to the rotation from the bullpen as opposed to from AAA.

I think in general it is good practice, though, even in this economic age of baseball. I just wouldn't necessarily use the best of the best of pitching prospects (guys like Bundy and Gausman) in the bullpen for an extended time. The guys who I think are better, I would accelerate through the process, perhaps even skipping it altogether.

[Russ]

I believe, and don't take this as fact, that klaw advocates for guys to pitch in the MLB bullpen rather than sitting in AA or AAA for an extra year waiting to make an impact on the MLB club.

The Rays do this to some degree. Kris Medlen from the Braves is another good example.

I like the idea, but with the present CBA how much sense does it make to eat up service time for a potential 1 or 2 by putting him in the pen?

[JeffLong]

I like the idea, but with the present CBA how much sense does it make to eat up service time for a potential 1 or 2 by putting him in the pen?

That's obviously another question but consider the cost savings too. Rather than filling a bullpen with $5 million / year arms you could fill it with guys making $500K or so. You could then use those savings to buy out arb / free agent years later.

[JeremyStrain]

It's generally a good thing for young pitchers to ease their way into a rotation in small doses, giving them a chance to adjust to the speed of things, to individual hitters, and learning what you have to change from the minors to the majors. When they are doing that in the rotation, they have this extra pressure that if they don't perform, they get shipped back to the minors, then once there you have to perform at a high level again to get another shot.

Using the BP, guys get a chance to adjust to most of the hard stuff without having to be at their BEST every pitch. Then when they move to the rotation, the only adjustment left, as mentioned before, is when guys start to see them more than once and can adjust in later AB.

[You Play to Win the Game]

That's obviously another question but consider the cost savings too. Rather than filling a bullpen with $5 million / year arms you could fill it with guys making $500K or so. You could then use those savings to buy out arb / free agent years later.

Under McPhail's bullpen philosophy, yes... but hopefully we don't see that with Duq (So far so good).

[Mackus]

Under McPhail's bullpen philosophy, yes... but hopefully we don't see that with Duq (So far so good).

Well, JJ is going to make $6.5-7M this year and probably $9-10M next year if he has another good season.

Not exactly Jamie Walker, but it's a lot of money for a reliever. Which I'd be perfectly happy to pay if I didn't think it was preventing us from spending elsewhere.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Well, JJ is going to make $6.5-7M this year and probably $9-10M next year if he has another good season.

Not exactly Jamie Walker, but it's a lot of money for a reliever. Which I'd be perfectly happy to pay if I didn't think it was preventing us from spending elsewhere.

But I don't see Duq paying 3-4 players $5M per season, like AM seemed to be content doing. He's been very shrewd so far with acquiring a lot of fringe guys and putting them at AAA until they're ready to contribute. I really hope we trade JJ at some point. If our payroll is going to remain in the current range, we cannot afford to be paying back end guys that much money.

And my point, by the way, was just that even though JJ would make some nice coin, JJ isn't who said pitching prospect would be taking over for. The pitching prospect would likely be more like the 4th or 5th option in the pen, something that. And those guys are almost always making at or near league minimum. Mainly, I was taking the opportunity to counter Jeff's point, which is always fun.