180 replies to this topic

[CantonJester]

Yeah, and I'm not saying any of this to "bury" the issue. But we only really know the VERY little bit that we know. Folks can make up any one of 100 scenarios as to how those involved got there. We only know what we know, and the folks who have the most resources to officially investigate the matter decided there's not enough there to pursue further. If she did suddenly tell a private investigator more than she told the actual police, and presented some damning evidence to him that she didn't present to police... at this point there would be a lot of question raised as to "why".

 

Unless something else develops, it seems like a brief domestic issue that nobody wants to pursue further.  Given that state, folks can't do much more about it than move on in my opinion.

 

 

Who is making things up? This is speculation. We're left to do that because Zay Flowers and his (allegedly assaulted) girlfriend are not cooperating with police.

 

There's also the issue of a third party using a firearm to threaten the (alleged) victim. 

 

You seem prepared to move on, and good on you for that. I want to know more about that gun, and my guess is the NFL does as well. The Ravens can (and I guess, at the end of the day, should) talk out of both sides of their mouth, but the Shield doesn't have to worry about a preponderance of guilt the way a criminal court would. Though, BCoPD sure didn't do much to compel the uh "witnesses."

[Slidemaster]

I'm going to post this because I think it's continuing to go unacknowledged. Once a victim has contacted police and reported a crime, the state now has the ability to press charges themselves. They chose not to do it.

https://www.aerlawgr...-press-charges/

The victim cannot make the issue go away. They can't tell the police not to and end the investigation. The police in this case investigated for what was about a month if the timelines were reported correctly.

Remember that they deal with victims every single day, and I'm sure many of them have been threatened or feel scared. This is, sadly, not a unique circumstance. It isn't like they asked a half dozen questions over their morning coffee and threw the case out. It took a MONTH.

I'll say it again - we don't know the details of the case or what the police know. We have no idea what the interviews they did revealed. We don't know any of the facts of the case. This is not a situation where Zay was charged and then was found not guilty. He wasn't even charged at all. That is a law enforcement and prosecutor decision, not one made by his girlfriend.

Again, I'm not saying nothing happened at all, but good God, the amount of presumed guilt here with no (or next to no) evidence, after a thorough investigation by professional law enforcement and investigators who I'm sure would LOVE to make the news for bringing down a high profile athlete, is staggering.

[cprenegade]

I agree that it is all speculation going on with the Zay Flowers case, but he is fostering that by not cooperating with the police.  As far as I am concerned he loses the benefit of the doubt by not agreeing to allow the investigators to question him.  I think it is important to note that the police did not close the case, they merely suspended the investigation.  If they had closed it that would signal they believed there was nothing there to begin with.  Suspending means they feel something happened, but they don't have enough to charge him and make it stick.  

 

The thought that he physically beat the girl up is bad enough, but the gun accusation is particularly troubling.  If true, this could be a serious tragedy down the road.  I think the gun allegation is probably why the investigation has been suspended and not closed.  

 

I hope the NFL does it's own investigation, and they should tell him to cooperate with the police investigation or face indefinite suspension until he does.  That won't happen.  Maybe he gets a 2 or 4 game suspension at best for violating conduct policy, but that is it.  

[hallas]

I agree that it is all speculation going on with the Zay Flowers case, but he is fostering that by not cooperating with the police. As far as I am concerned he loses the benefit of the doubt by not agreeing to allow the investigators to question him. I think it is important to note that the police did not close the case, they merely suspended the investigation. If they had closed it that would signal they believed there was nothing there to begin with. Suspending means they feel something happened, but they don't have enough to charge him and make it stick.

The thought that he physically beat the girl up is bad enough, but the gun accusation is particularly troubling. If true, this could be a serious tragedy down the road. I think the gun allegation is probably why the investigation has been suspended and not closed.

I hope the NFL does it's own investigation, and they should tell him to cooperate with the police investigation or face indefinite suspension until he does. That won't happen. Maybe he gets a 2 or 4 game suspension at best for violating conduct policy, but that is it.

What in the world is he supposed to say to police? And what in the world is he supposed to tell his gf (or ex-gf?) "Please baby tell the police what a bad guy I am."

[cprenegade]

What in the world is he supposed to say to police? And what in the world is he supposed to tell his gf (or ex-gf?) "Please baby tell the police what a bad guy I am."

 

Maybe just give his side of the story to the police.  Why would he say to his girlfriend or ex-girlfriend that he is a bad guy?  Are you assuming he is guilty?  

 

I don't know if he is or not, but refusing to talk to the investigators makes him look guilty as hell.  

 

I'm not sure why you have a problem with him giving an interview to the investigators.  I'm sure his lawyer would be there with him.  No problem with that.  Declining to even talk to the investigators just makes him look like he is hiding something.  

 

I have no respect for him.  I hope the NFL comes down hard on him.  They probably won't.  Maybe karma will get him. I won't be sympathetic in the least if it goes down that way.  

[CantonJester]

I'm going to post this because I think it's continuing to go unacknowledged. Once a victim has contacted police and reported a crime, the state now has the ability to press charges themselves. They chose not to do it.

https://www.aerlawgr...-press-charges/

The victim cannot make the issue go away. They can't tell the police not to and end the investigation. The police in this case investigated for what was about a month if the timelines were reported correctly.

Remember that they deal with victims every single day, and I'm sure many of them have been threatened or feel scared. This is, sadly, not a unique circumstance. It isn't like they asked a half dozen questions over their morning coffee and threw the case out. It took a MONTH.

I'll say it again - we don't know the details of the case or what the police know. We have no idea what the interviews they did revealed. We don't know any of the facts of the case. This is not a situation where Zay was charged and then was found not guilty. He wasn't even charged at all. That is a law enforcement and prosecutor decision, not one made by his girlfriend.

Again, I'm not saying nothing happened at all, but good God, the amount of presumed guilt here with no (or next to no) evidence, after a thorough investigation by professional law enforcement and investigators who I'm sure would LOVE to make the news for bringing down a high profile athlete, is staggering.

 

Let's talk about the gun and its effectiveness in squelching conversation. 

[hallas]

Maybe just give his side of the story to the police.  Why would he say to his girlfriend or ex-girlfriend that he is a bad guy?  Are you assuming he is guilty?  

 

I don't know if he is or not, but refusing to talk to the investigators makes him look guilty as hell.  

 

I'm not sure why you have a problem with him giving an interview to the investigators.  I'm sure his lawyer would be there with him.  No problem with that.  Declining to even talk to the investigators just makes him look like he is hiding something.  

 

I have no respect for him.  I hope the NFL comes down hard on him.  They probably won't.  Maybe karma will get him. I won't be sympathetic in the least if it goes down that way.  

So he's guilty for exercising his Miranda rights now?  What?

[makoman]

Maybe just give his side of the story to the police.  Why would he say to his girlfriend or ex-girlfriend that he is a bad guy?  Are you assuming he is guilty?  

 

I don't know if he is or not, but refusing to talk to the investigators makes him look guilty as hell.  

 

I'm not sure why you have a problem with him giving an interview to the investigators.  I'm sure his lawyer would be there with him.  No problem with that.  Declining to even talk to the investigators just makes him look like he is hiding something.  

 

I have no respect for him.  I hope the NFL comes down hard on him.  They probably won't.  Maybe karma will get him. I won't be sympathetic in the least if it goes down that way.  

There's zero reason to "give your side" to the police if you aren't being charged with anything. There are only downsides. Innocent people do this all the time and it comes back to bite them. The police aren't your friends trying to help you prove your innocence, that would be insanity.

[Slidemaster]

Let's talk about the gun and its effectiveness in squelching conversation.

I have no doubt that the police are well accustomed with dealing with victims who have been threatened, or are afraid of retaliation. The police would know about the gun, they would know about the brother, and they would know to protect her if they felt she was in any credible danger. She also lives in an entirely different city, presumably hundreds of miles away from where the brother lives, and would be under police protection. If she was really afraid of being killed because she was threatened with a gun, she would never have mentioned the gun at all. Restraining orders would be in place as well.

Beyond that though, the police would still have it within their authority to go and investigate the brother, search his house for a firearm, and investigate thoroughly. Finding out someone has been threatened with a deadly weapon allows the police to take control of the investigation themselves without cooperation from the victim. When you're in a "He said, she said" case, what conversation could the gun squelch if the conversation the gun was meant to prevent has already happened?

With all that said though, the entire idea that the brother threatened her with a gun after Zay beat her up is weird to me. Did he (presumably) beat her up with his brother home and he pulled the gun there? Did he feel that bold? Did the brother come to her later and threaten her?

Nobody knows for sure what happened, but that seems off to me. My guess is that:

-Zay and his girlfriend got into a verbal fight
-He probably pushed her or hit her or did something he shouldn't have, but probably not in the black-and-blue, busted-lip, beaten-up kind of way (that doesn't heal completely after 5 days. Hell, my wife banged her leg on a stair last week and it's still blue)
-She threatened to destroy his career in anger
-The brother found out and probably called her or sent her a picture of his gun through a text message after the fact
-She (rightfully) told the police.

I also think it's worth remembering that the actions of the brother are not the same as the actions of Zay. It doesn't mean that he is blameless, but he also can't control what his brother does any more than any of us can.

Regardless, it's all speculation at this point. I have no idea if that is actually right. We don't even know conclusively that there was a threat made with a gun or what level of assault occurred (if it did at all). Everything appears to be hearsay. The only ones who know what happened are the police who investigated and the people involved, and they chose not to press any charges despite their lawful right to do so if they wanted.

I'll also say this - I don't think we should presume guilt if someone doesn't talk to the police, particularly black men in big cities. I'm not going to get political and I don't think the police are bad, but there have been enough incidences of misconduct at this point that I think it's a defensible thing to decide to do in their position.

[russsnyder]

So he's guilty for exercising his Miranda rights now? What?

This.

The alleged victim has not even named anyone in this case. She refuses to identify the person, except to say that he was a " high profile" player "with a lot to lose." There's really nothing the police can do if this person won't come forward and identify her abuser and the person who allegedly pointed a gun at her.

I can certainly understand her being scared if she were actually shown a gun. That said, I think we have to give Flowers (or whomever the high profile player involved is) the presumption of innocence. Especially since he has not even been ID'ed by the accuser.

I think one if the reasons the case was suspended was to give the alleged victim a bit of breathing room. Maybe she comes forward with more details, or perhaps it dies in the vine. Further, if this person does not cooperate with the NFL, I sincerely doubt that Flowers faces any punishment.

[russsnyder]

There's zero reason to "give your side" to the police if you aren't being charged with anything. There are only downsides. Innocent people do this all the time and it comes back to bite them. The police aren't your friends trying to help you prove your innocence, that would be insanity.

I have seen enough Episodes of the First 48 to lawyer up if I'm accused of jaywalking.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I have no doubt that the police are well accustomed with dealing with victims who have been threatened, or are afraid of retaliation. The police would know about the gun, they would know about the brother, and they would know to protect her if they felt she was in any credible danger. She also lives in an entirely different city, presumably hundreds of miles away from where the brother lives, and would be under police protection. If she was really afraid of being killed because she was threatened with a gun, she would never have mentioned the gun at all. Restraining orders would be in place as well.

Beyond that though, the police would still have it within their authority to go and investigate the brother, search his house for a firearm, and investigate thoroughly. Finding out someone has been threatened with a deadly weapon allows the police to take control of the investigation themselves without cooperation from the victim. When you're in a "He said, she said" case, what conversation could the gun squelch if the conversation the gun was meant to prevent has already happened?

With all that said though, the entire idea that the brother threatened her with a gun after Zay beat her up is weird to me. Did he (presumably) beat her up with his brother home and he pulled the gun there? Did he feel that bold? Did the brother come to her later and threaten her?

Nobody knows for sure what happened, but that seems off to me. My guess is that:

-Zay and his girlfriend got into a verbal fight
-He probably pushed her or hit her or did something he shouldn't have, but probably not in the black-and-blue, busted-lip, beaten-up kind of way (that doesn't heal completely after 5 days. Hell, my wife banged her leg on a stair last week and it's still blue)
-She threatened to destroy his career in anger
-The brother found out and probably called her or sent her a picture of his gun through a text message after the fact
-She (rightfully) told the police.

I also think it's worth remembering that the actions of the brother are not the same as the actions of Zay. It doesn't mean that he is blameless, but he also can't control what his brother does any more than any of us can.

Regardless, it's all speculation at this point. I have no idea if that is actually right. We don't even know conclusively that there was a threat made with a gun or what level of assault occurred (if it did at all). Everything appears to be hearsay. The only ones who know what happened are the police who investigated and the people involved, and they chose not to press any charges despite their lawful right to do so if they wanted.

I'll also say this - I don't think we should presume guilt if someone doesn't talk to the police, particularly black men in big cities. I'm not going to get political and I don't think the police are bad, but there have been enough incidences of misconduct at this point that I think it's a defensible thing to decide to do in their position.

If your stance is the police have suspended their investigation and youre good with that, welcome Zay back with open arms, and dont think the league should investigate. I can live with that take. But all this speculation where now we are guessing what Zay did or didnt do or how black and blue she was. Saying something doesnt add up and trying to minimize. Its ridiculous.

[bmore_ken]

Let's talk about the gun and its effectiveness in squelching conversation. 

Did she mention the gun to police?

[Ravens2006]

In reality, there is basically a ton of speculation about a personal, behind closed doors incident for which it SEEMS maybe 2 or 3 people actually know all of what happened.

In my early 20s I briefly had a girlfriend that could show quite an explosive temper and once punched me in the chest while screaming about something insanely stupid in the big picture. For a split second I saw myself punching her back and on a different day might have done it. I never drank, but I could see an inebriated person not having the self control to walk away. I walked away and of course we broke up. In that instance, she was the aggressor, but if I had reacted and hit back, in hindsight I can almost guarantee she would have cried abuse.

Think what you want, but not everything is black and white, and speculation and assumptions are an equally dangerous thing to me. If we weren't there, and folks aren't pursuing charges, we really have no good idea what happened and probably shouldn't judge. Zay might be pond scum in this, and he might be unfairly accused. Nobody knows.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Who was it again that argued with me that all most fans care about is that hes on the field on Sundays next fall. Has this thread not been enough proof of that.

[BobPhelan]

Who was it again that argued with me that all most fans care about is that hes on the field on Sundays next fall. Has this thread not been enough proof of that.

1,000%

[CantonJester]

Did she mention the gun to police?

 

Yup. That’s what’s so puzzling. 

[jamesdean]

Yup. That’s what’s so puzzling. 

She can mention it all she wants but without evidence, there's not much cops or prosecutors can do. 

[BaltBird 24]

Or if she's even still cooperating. Most times in domestic situations the victim fails to cooperate after the initial call.

[cprenegade]

I still don't see where giving your statement to the police is all that horrible. I've given statements to investigations before and haven't been jammed up in any way. If you are innocent I would think you want your side to come out.

But I do have to admit that I totally get the belief that Flowers should not talk to the authorities. I was coming from the opinion that Flowers was innocent and this may be a fabrication from the girl who called 911. If you are coming from the opinion that he may be guilty, then I get it. Hell yeah, I wouldn't talk to the investigators either. One slip up could cause you to be guilty in the eyes of the law.

One other thing that has not been widely reported. While being interviewed by the Acton Massachusetts police she received a call. She stated to them that it was from the suspect's agent. She did not answer. After that she refused to talk to the investigating authorities. I wonder if the investigation could subpoena the bank records of the accuser? It's not hard to "speculate" that her account received a 5 or 6 digit deposit after she finally talked to the suspect's agent. (https://www.cbsnews....-investigation/)

The Ravens say they are conducting their own investigation. We shall see. The NFL is also investigating. Legally, Zay Flowers has a great chance of not being charged with anything. He most likely paid off his accuser.

She called 911, and was crying on the phone. She said he beat her up, and trashed her belongings. She then also said there was no emergency. And then she went back to Acton. Massachusetts where she filed a report. At that time, she received a call that she specifically said was from the suspect's agent. After that, she refused to talk to authorities. Very hard to believe that this was a fabrication.

The NFL conduct code says this:

"It is not enough simply to avoid being found guilty of a crime in a court of law. We are all held to a higher standard…" and "In cases in which a player is not charged with a crime, or is charged but not convicted, he may still be found to have violated the Policy if the credible evidence establishes that he engaged in prohibited conduct."

Zay Flowers will walk from a legal charge, hopefully the NFL will at least give him a suspension. Yes, I know it is speculation, but the evidence is very substantial. Unless Flowers himself wants to offer his own side of the story. In which case I will be very open to seeing his what his side of the story has to say.