20 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

PressBox: Stan ‘The Fan’ Charles: End Of Angelos Ownership Brings Back Memories, New Hope For Orioles

[SBTarheel]

PressBox: Stan ‘The Fan’ Charles: End Of Angelos Ownership Brings Back Memories, New Hope For Orioles

I love my guy Stan, but I've been using the "We had the highest payroll in 1998" thing to try to defend Angelos for years now, and people don't want to hear it. I get it obviously, as things got worse as the years have gone on, but I respect the effort!

[BSLMikeLowe]

In John’s short tenure, he did something his father never could do — hire someone and let them do their job. The fans’ disdain for him is something I’ll never totally understand. His biggest crime was not having access to his father’s checkbook to write the checks Peter had in the past.

 

Oh please. Peter was not writing checks out of his personal bank account to pay players. He just didn't feel the need to hoard so much money off the club as John did.

[makoman]

Oh please. Peter was not writing checks out of his personal bank account to pay players. He just didn't feel the need to hoard so much money off the club as John did.

I mean, this is the guy that told us we just need to trust his good buddy John.

https://forum.baltim...good-with-that/

[BaltBird 24]

I mean, this is the guy that told us we just need to trust his good buddy John.

https://forum.baltim...good-with-that/

Less than a year later. That article aged like milk.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I mean look at what Chris had to say about his time working under this ownership. Even in a smaller role. And we know there are a lot of other stories out there ovet the years. The Angelos ownership wasnt the worst it could get but these 30 years were a 3 out of 10 at best.

[mdrunning]

I mean look at what Chris had to say about his time working under this ownership. Even in a smaller role. And we know there are a lot of other stories out there ovet the years. The Angelos ownership wasnt the worst it could get but these 30 years were a 3 out of 10 at best.

Things were different when Peter Angelos bought the Orioles in 1993. For one, he didn't have the Nationals sitting 40 miles or so to the south. (And I don't care what anyone claims, putting a team just outside of D.C. cut dramatically into the Orioles' market.) He had a new jewel of a ballpark, a rabid fanbase, and he was trading on the good will of the players due to his labor-friendly, no-replacement players stance during the strike.

 

But Peter Angelos wasn't a business baron like, well, David Rubeinstein. He was a trial lawyer who most likely leveraged himself to the hilt to get into baseball. And while he was willing to spend money at the outset to put a winning product on the field, that formula couldn't last forever. I think he knew that it took money to be successful in baseball, I don't think he was aware of how much money it actually required. After the initial successes with the 1996 and '97 teams, he began to operate like a man desperately hoping to come up with a winner before the train hit him.

 

The Angelos family is wealthy by virtually any standard, but their fortune pales in comparison to many of their major-league counterparts in that most of their wealth is based on the value of the team. It isn't liquid. As we've all inferred on here, John Angelos's best life decision was picking his parents; he didn't have the means to run a major league baseball franchise since he had no income outside of his father's businesses. That's not the kind of owner baseball wants to count among its ranks.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

The payroll, while obviously a problem, never bothered me as much as the stories of meddling and how poorly the franchise operated and treated a lot of people.

[Mackus]

The payroll, while obviously a problem, never bothered me as much as the stories of meddling and how poorly the franchise operated and treated a lot of people.

Agree. Glad we don't have to choose, but I'd rather have John being real cheap but otherwise out of the way than have Peter spending a reasonable amount but only doling it out in chaotic, arbitrary circumstances amongst other constraints. Neither is good, in fact both are bad, but the Peter approach was less tenable.

[BaltBird 24]

I'll never recover from Peter hiring Syd Thrift. The dysfunction from the late 90s even through the Showalter/ DD era is well documented. Glad it's over.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I'll never recover from Peter hiring Syd Thrift. The dysfunction from the late 90s even through the Showalter/ DD era is well documented. Glad it's over.

Yeah I remember Thorne candidly and quite brazenly talking on another broadcast during the disasterous '18 season. He was essentially saying how big of a cluster F things were at the time. So yeah, the Buck/DD era had a lot of issues too. Its just that Buck and the players maxed out and overachieved for 3 of the years and gave us 3 unexepcted playoff berths.

[BaltBird 24]

Yeah I remember Thorne candidly and quite brazenly talking on another broadcast during the disasterous '18 season. He was essentially saying how big of a cluster F things were at the time. So yeah, the Buck/DD era had a lot of issues too. Its just that Buck and the players maxed out and overachieved for 3 of the years and gave us 3 unexepcted playoff berths.

It seemed like Buck and DD brought some stability, but then it all went bad after the DD to Toronto debacle. Honestly, Peter should've just let him leave.

[Ravens2006]

Key observations from that hilarious article I can only guess John paid him to write.. DeWitt and the hated Loria would own teams that have played in 5 World Series since then, and won 3 of them (if my quick math is right)... the core of what made the 12-16 teams competitive was acquired by MacPhail, and not Duquette, who was not the least bit "inspired" and ran the farm system deep into the earth's core... and John being despised is completely and totally understandable.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Things were different when Peter Angelos bought the Orioles in 1993. For one, he didn't have the Nationals sitting 40 miles or so to the south. (And I don't care what anyone claims, putting a team just outside of D.C. cut dramatically into the Orioles' market.) He had a new jewel of a ballpark, a rabid fanbase, and he was trading on the good will of the players due to his labor-friendly, no-replacement players stance during the strike.

 

But Peter Angelos wasn't a business baron like, well, David Rubeinstein. He was a trial lawyer who most likely leveraged himself to the hilt to get into baseball. And while he was willing to spend money at the outset to put a winning product on the field, that formula couldn't last forever. I think he knew that it took money to be successful in baseball, I don't think he was aware of how much money it actually required. After the initial successes with the 1996 and '97 teams, he began to operate like a man desperately hoping to come up with a winner before the train hit him.

 

The Angelos family is wealthy by virtually any standard, but their fortune pales in comparison to many of their major-league counterparts in that most of their wealth is based on the value of the team. It isn't liquid. As we've all inferred on here, John Angelos's best life decision was picking his parents; he didn't have the means to run a major league baseball franchise since he had no income outside of his father's businesses. That's not the kind of owner baseball wants to count among its ranks.

 

I read a piece written by someone who recalled a conversation between Pete and his financier(s) during that auction, at a point where he needed more money than he'd been approved for to beat out Loria, and that he looked at the guy, smiled and said something to the effect of "you'll figure it out." $173 million doesn't sound like much in today's pro sports world (they'll have paid Chris Davis more than that once the deferred money is done, if you include his arbitration years) but at that time it was a record price for a North American sports franchise.

 

One thing I always wonder and don't really know....because Pete bought the franchise at a bankruptcy auction, where a judge has the final say on pretty much everything, how much of a role did MLB have in approving him?

[mdrunning]

I read a piece written by someone who recalled a conversation between Pete and his financier(s) during that auction, at a point where he needed more money than he'd been approved for to beat out Loria, and that he looked at the guy, smiled and said something to the effect of "you'll figure it out." $173 million doesn't sound like much in today's pro sports world (they'll have paid Chris Davis more than that once the deferred money is done, if you include his arbitration years) but at that time it was a record price for a North American sports franchise.

 

One thing I always wonder and don't really know....because Pete bought the franchise at a bankruptcy auction, where a judge has the final say on pretty much everything, how much of a role did MLB have in approving him?

Most likely because Angelos managed to convince Bill DeWitt, Jr. his one-time rival for ownership of the Orioles, to come over to his side in the bidding for the franchise. DeWitt had baseball pedigree--and was also friends with then Milwaukee owner/commissioner Bud Selig. He had baseball connections of his own through his minority interest in the Rangers with soon-to-be-President George W. Bush. He was an insider, and that was just the way Selig and the boys wanted it. Oh, and his father had once owned the St. Louis Browns.

 

DeWitt thought he had the inside track to the Orioles and had met several times with Eli Jacobs regarding the sale of the team. Selig and the rest of the owners wanted DeWitt to close the sale since they knew Jacobs was in trouble financially and was on the verge of having all of his assets seized. They didn't want the embarrassment of having a franchise being sold at a bankruptcy auction, and they also didn't want other parties getting involved. They wanted someone they knew and who would abide by the rules of their fraternity. They also didn't want another George Steinbrenner or Charlie Finley. Peter Angelos, by convincing DeWitt to join his team of investors, suddenly had the one thing he lacked: contacts within major league baseball.

 

Weeks before the start of the 1993 season, Jacobs defaulted on loans to seven banks, which forced him into bankruptcy. It was the banks who wanted the team on the open market, believing an open auction would drive the price of the team north of the $141.3 million Jacobs and DeWitt had agreed upon. They were right.

 

Getting DeWitt onboard was a coup by Angelos, but in the end, I don't think baseball could have had the final say on who ultimately owned the Orioles since once the case went to bankruptcy, it was out of their hands. A bankruptcy hearing is for the benefit of creditors who otherwise may have no means of recovering their money. The purpose is to maximize revenue, not appease a bunch of fat-cat baseball owners.

[Mackus]

Getting DeWitt onboard was a coup by Angelos, but in the end, I don't think baseball could have had the final say on who ultimately owned the Orioles since once the case went to bankruptcy, it was out of their hands. A bankruptcy hearing is for the benefit of creditors who otherwise may have no means of recovering their money. The purpose is to maximize revenue, not appease a bunch of fat-cat baseball owners.

 

Unless the current rules were implemented after this sale in 1993, I think MLB still would have the right to approve who bought the team and, in particular, who operates the team as the control person.  I can't find details of when the current rules went into place, so its possible that MLB was stuck with whomever won the bidding.  My guess would be that MLB still had the right to approve or deny the ownership bid.

[RichardZ]

Stan Charles both looks and sounds like Dr. Evil from Austin Powers. No?

[ivanbalt]

In John’s short tenure, he did something his father never could do — hire someone and let them do their job. The fans’ disdain for him is something I’ll never totally understand. His biggest crime was not having access to his father’s checkbook to write the checks Peter had in the past.

 

Seems pretty easy to understand the disdain for John Angelos.  Repeatedly lying to the fans, the city and the state.  Repeatedly trying to steal headlines when the team was finally competing.  Trying to the fleece the city/state of stadium lots because $600 million just doesn't cut it.

[mdrunning]

Unless the current rules were implemented after this sale in 1993, I think MLB still would have the right to approve who bought the team and, in particular, who operates the team as the control person.  I can't find details of when the current rules went into place, so its possible that MLB was stuck with whomever won the bidding.  My guess would be that MLB still had the right to approve or deny the ownership bid.

There were only two groups bidding for the Orioles that summer: the Angelos/DeWitt contingent and another headed by Jeffrey Loria, who would later own the Marlins. Actually, MLB did disapprove "Boogie" Weinglass, founder of the The Gap, as a potential owner. Probably because they, a) didn't like his ponytail, and b) he really didn't have the funds to purchase a major league franchise.

 

They certainly didn't want Bill Veeck to buy the White Sox in 1975, but of the two groups bidding on the team, only Veeck's pledged to keep the team in Chicago. The other, headed by actor Danny Kaye, were proposing to move the team to Seattle. Baseball made Veeck's group jump through all sorts of financial and legal hoops, but when they did so, MLB had no choice but to approve him. Besides, no one else wanted the sad-sack franchise, which at the time was in dire financial straits.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Most likely because Angelos managed to convince Bill DeWitt, Jr. his one-time rival for ownership of the Orioles, to come over to his side in the bidding for the franchise. DeWitt had baseball pedigree--and was also friends with then Milwaukee owner/commissioner Bud Selig. He had baseball connections of his own through his minority interest in the Rangers with soon-to-be-President George W. Bush. He was an insider, and that was just the way Selig and the boys wanted it. Oh, and his father had once owned the St. Louis Browns.

 

DeWitt thought he had the inside track to the Orioles and had met several times with Eli Jacobs regarding the sale of the team. Selig and the rest of the owners wanted DeWitt to close the sale since they knew Jacobs was in trouble financially and was on the verge of having all of his assets seized. They didn't want the embarrassment of having a franchise being sold at a bankruptcy auction, and they also didn't want other parties getting involved. They wanted someone they knew and who would abide by the rules of their fraternity. They also didn't want another George Steinbrenner or Charlie Finley. Peter Angelos, by convincing DeWitt to join his team of investors, suddenly had the one thing he lacked: contacts within major league baseball.

 

Weeks before the start of the 1993 season, Jacobs defaulted on loans to seven banks, which forced him into bankruptcy. It was the banks who wanted the team on the open market, believing an open auction would drive the price of the team north of the $141.3 million Jacobs and DeWitt had agreed upon. They were right.

 

Getting DeWitt onboard was a coup by Angelos, but in the end, I don't think baseball could have had the final say on who ultimately owned the Orioles since once the case went to bankruptcy, it was out of their hands. A bankruptcy hearing is for the benefit of creditors who otherwise may have no means of recovering their money. The purpose is to maximize revenue, not appease a bunch of fat-cat baseball owners.

I do recall now Angelos allied with DeWitt, so that certainly helped. My understanding of the laws is you’re correct that if a franchise goes through bankruptcy and a judge approves a sale, MLB is probably stuck with the result….not sure if their antitrust exemption would provide them a basis for rejection if they didn’t approve of the buyer.