51 replies to this topic

[bmore_ken]

I laugh when I see Harbs getting killed over player injuries.  He is not going to be able to play Andrews or anyone else unless the doctors and the player say go.  Harbs is just the guy on the podium, dreading about talking about player injuries.

It's not about Harbaugh being blamed for injuries. My comment was that I feel like Andrews should be shut down for the season. Andrews doesn't control that, Harbaugh does. If we can't win with Kolar and Likey to replace him, why are they on the roster?

[Mike in STL]

It's not about Harbaugh being blamed for injuries. My comment was that I feel like Andrews should be shut down for the season. Andrews doesn't control that, Harbaugh does. If we can't win with Kolar and Likey to replace him, why are they on the roster?

Why does Andrews need to be shut down for the season if he is healed and cleared by doctors before the Ravens have played their final game? 

 

Lamar shut himself down, and coach didn't say "get out there and play." So why would it be the reverse. If Andrews says, "I'm ready to play," and if he looks like himself in practice, why would coach say, thanks but no? 

[bmore_ken]

   

[85Knight]

You sure about that?

I didn't mean it was universal but I believe most professionals push their bodies to the extreme for rings and money. I think Andrews will do whatever he can to get back on the field this season if it's a possibility and that's not a bad thing.

[Mackus]

I didn't mean it was universal but I believe most professionals push their bodies to the extreme for rings and money. I think Andrews will do whatever he can to get back on the field this season if it's a possibility and that's not a bad thing.

He's taking, another, shot at Lamar.

[Mike in STL]

   

Thats what I thought.  

[BaltBird 24]

I didn't mean it was universal but I believe most professionals push their bodies to the extreme for rings and money. I think Andrews will do whatever he can to get back on the field this season if it's a possibility and that's not a bad thing.

Money, yes.

I don't think most of them care if they win or lose. We probably care more as fans than they do as players - for the most part.

[Biggsy]

He's taking, another, shot at Lamar.

I'm a huge Lamar fan. Probably always will be. But if you look at how last season went down, I'm not sure you could fully deny Lamar may have been playing possum a little with his health. I do believe he was legitimately injured. But by the playoff game, I do believe he could have played. He made a business decision. I think him being close to RG3 played into his decision a little. Redskins completely derailed RG3's career. And I honestly don't blame him. If he gives it a go, and he suffers a major knee injury because it wasn't 100% healed, he doesn't sniff the contract he ended up getting. He'd be almost guaranteed to miss this season. So Ravens aren't tagging him again. And no one is throwing him a longterm offer knowing he's missing the next season, and may not come back and be the player he was before. It's easy to be bitter as a fan who only wants to see his team win. But we're not the ones putting literally $100's of millions of dollars at risk.

[Mackus]

If he can't play without high risk of re-injury and making it worse, that's not being ready to play. I find the idea that Lamar was fine to play and chose to sit out a playoff game absolutely dismissible. It's essentially been proven wrong, as far as I'm concerned, because there is zero chance the team would've resigned him if they knew he was capable of playing but sat it out. That's utterly and completely disqualifying if it happened. There is no overlap in the venn diagram of "Ravens decide to resign Lamar" and "Lamar was healthy enough to play and chose to skip it".

[TwentyThirtyFive]

If he can't play without high risk of re-injury and making it worse, that's not being ready to play. I find the idea that Lamar was fine to play and chose to sit out a playoff game absolutely dismissible. It's essentially been proven wrong, as far as I'm concerned, because there is zero chance the team would've resigned him if they knew he was capable of playing but sat it out. That's utterly and completely disqualifying if it happened. There is no overlap in the venn diagram of "Ravens decide to resign Lamar" and "Lamar was healthy enough to play and chose to skip it".

I think it was likely pretty nuanced. The bottom line is he wasnt 100%. The knee wasnt stable. So the risk of reinjury was obviously higher vs letting it heal completely. I could see team doctors saying it was stable enough and not officially ruling him out medically. I mean these types of calls are made every week Im sure. Its obv guys arent 100% but the doctors dont medically restrict the player from playing so now it becomes a player/coach decision. In that case Im not sure why you think there would be no overlap in resigning him and him choosing not to try to play in Cincy.



I mean its obvious he wouldnt have looked like Lamar out there. His legs are his game. So Im convinved it wouldve gone really bad for him and the team being limited in his mobility. He also hadnt practiced or played in forever. So add to the lack of mobility a rust factor. Even though I do see a scenario where he couldve stepped on the field and gave it a go Im convinced it wouldve been a shit show. So it comes down to being something that the haters use as fuel to hate. Even though its not reasonable or rational to think he was capable of being an effective QB and winning a football game.

[Mackus]

I think it was likely pretty nuanced. The bottom line is he wasnt 100%. The knee wasnt stable. So the risk of reinjury was obviously higher vs letting it heal completely. I could see team doctors saying it was stable enough and not officially ruling him out medically. I mean these types of calls are made every week Im sure. Its obv guys arent 100% but the doctors dont medically restrict the player from playing so now it becomes a player/coach decision. In that case Im not sure why you think there would be no overlap in resigning him and him chooisng not to try to play in Cincy.

I explained why. If he was healthy enough physically to play and not be at higher than acceptable risk of reinjury or worsening the injury, then he'd have played. To not play in that scenario would be so selfish that no management, coach, or teammate would want anything to do with him again. If he was fully capable of playing and sat out, basically deciding to hold out for non-physical reasons, the team would've moved on.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I explained why. If he was healthy enough physically to play and not be at higher than acceptable risk of reinjury or worsening the injury, then he'd have played. To not play in that scenario would be so selfish that no management, coach, or teammate would want anything to do with him again. If he was fully capable of playing and sat out, basically deciding to hold out for non-physical reasons, the team would've moved on.

Whats an acceptable risk of injury or worsening of the injury. Is that something that the team doctor should rule him out and take it out of Lamar and the teams hand. I would say yes, but then players do the 2nd and 3rd opinion thing. So, my guess is the team doctors prob didnt rule him out medically. Lamar saw other doctors who advised him not to play. If thats the case where the team doctors didnt rule him out but an outside doctor did I dont think that wouldve stopped the team from resigning him.


Anyway, as I added on in my previous post. This is only fodder for the haters. He may have been capable of stepping on the field and taking snaps. He was never capable of being an effective QB and I think all parties understood that. But its a playoff game and the alternative is Huntley so of course part of you wants to think Lamar just standing under center being a shell of himself still gives the team a better chance than Huntley

[bmore_ken]

Whats an acceptable risk of injury or worsening of the injury. Is that something that the team doctor should rule him out and take it out of Lamar and the teams hand. I would say yes, but then players do the 2nd and 3rd opinion thing. So, my guess is the team doctors prob didnt rule him out medically. Lamar saw other doctors who advised him not to play. If thats the case where the team doctors didnt rule him out but an outside doctor did I dont think that wouldve stopped the team from resigning him.


Anyway, as I added on in my previous post. This is only fodder for the haters. He may have been capable of stepping on the field and taking snaps. He was never capable of being an effective QB and I think all parties understood that. But its a playoff game and the alternative is Huntley so of course part of you wants to think Lamar just standing under center being a shell of himself still gives the team a better chance than Huntley

It feels so nasty when I agree with you on something.

[Mike in STL]

If he can't play without high risk of re-injury and making it worse, that's not being ready to play. I find the idea that Lamar was fine to play and chose to sit out a playoff game absolutely dismissible. It's essentially been proven wrong, as far as I'm concerned, because there is zero chance the team would've resigned him if they knew he was capable of playing but sat it out. That's utterly and completely disqualifying if it happened. There is no overlap in the venn diagram of "Ravens decide to resign Lamar" and "Lamar was healthy enough to play and chose to skip it".

Media to DeCosta: “Did Lamar’s contract situation play into his decision not to play?”
EDC: “You’ll have to ask Lamar about that. But, I think he was hurt.”

Why was his answer not flat out, “No!” ?

Throw in that Harbaugh later said Lamar could have played the next week if they advanced… how convenient.

Nothing has been proven. The team didn’t even IR him.

I’m not saying he was faking it. I’m not saying he was 100% and sat. I’ve taken the stance that he didn’t feel comfortable playing on it, but for $260M, he probably could have gutted it out.

His own teammates questioned his toughness for christs sake. Why do we have to ignore all the signs and anoint LJ the toughest football player on the planet who would never make a business (selfish) decision for his own benefit?

[Biggsy]

If he can't play without high risk of re-injury and making it worse, that's not being ready to play. I find the idea that Lamar was fine to play and chose to sit out a playoff game absolutely dismissible. It's essentially been proven wrong, as far as I'm concerned, because there is zero chance the team would've resigned him if they knew he was capable of playing but sat it out. That's utterly and completely disqualifying if it happened. There is no overlap in the venn diagram of "Ravens decide to resign Lamar" and "Lamar was healthy enough to play and chose to skip it".

You can find it dismissable, and people can disagree. Likely no one will ever known the truth.

I don't believe Lamar was 100%. I do believe he was healthy enough to go out and play if he chose to play. I do agree with 2035 that it's likely it turned into a s--- show. If you think all team doctors have the players best interests at heart when giving them a green light or red light, I have some bad news for you. Having had a lot of lower body injuries myself when I was younger, I can tell you from experience, if it's not 100%, especially the knee, there is always a chance of re-injury, or worsening it.

I truly believe team doctors were telling the Ravens that Lamar could medically play if he felt comfortable. I believe the team left it up to Lamar. And I fully believe Lamar made a business decision, and rightfully so. If his knee didn't feel 100%, he wasn't going to play. And why would he?

The team makes business decisions all the time they screw players over. They understand the business side of this thing. If they felt Lamar made a business decision, I really don't see them holding it against him.

I don't believe this is a Lamar was 100% or close to it, and sat out on purpose argument. That I agree is dismissable. I do believe their was a line where team doctors told him he wasn't fully healed, but he was healed enough to play, and gave him the go ahead, but left it up to Lamar. and he chose not to risk further injury, and the team respected his decision. I don't think that is that farfetched.

[Mackus]

I don't believe this is a Lamar was 100% or close to it, and sat out on purpose argument. That I agree is dismissable.

I think it has been. How I've described their arguments as people saying he was 'healthy enough to play without major chance of worsening the injury' seems very similar to what you're describing as "close to 100%". And people are arguing that's what happened. I dismiss that entirely. Anyone with a heart would be done with Lamar forever if he did that in a playoff game. But the Ravens and his teammates weren't done with Lamar. They paid him. There hasn't been any eye-rolling from teammates that I've noticed. That tells me that Lamar had legit, medical reason to not play, and not just that he was holding out until he got paid.

[Mackus]

Whats an acceptable risk of injury or worsening of the injury.

Hard to say from a non-medical point of view, but I could try to throw some odds of re-injury together. If it's significantly higher (+20%?) than usual, that'd be unacceptable. But whatever the definition, I think we can lean into the team's response and surmise that he wasn't that close since they felt it was justified enough to continue a relationship with him.

[Mike in STL]

Hard to say from a non-medical point of view, but I could try to throw some odds of re-injury together. If it's significantly higher (+20%?) than usual, that'd be unacceptable. But whatever the definition, I think we can lean into the team's response and surmise that he wasn't that close since they felt it was justified enough to continue a relationship with him.

I'm sure the fact he is one of the top QBs in the league didn't factor into that decision at all. lol.

 

 

I think it has been. How I've described their arguments as people saying he was 'healthy enough to play without major chance of worsening the injury' seems very similar to what you're describing as "close to 100%". And people are arguing that's what happened. I dismiss that entirely. Anyone with a heart would be done with Lamar forever if he did that in a playoff game. But the Ravens and his teammates weren't done with Lamar. They paid him. There hasn't been any eye-rolling from teammates that I've noticed. That tells me that Lamar had legit, medical reason to not play, and not just that he was holding out until he got paid.

Sammy Watkins called out Lamar and the team publicly. As a vet on a one-year deal about to play his last game for the team, he felt comfortable saying what others were thinking but couldn't say because of their status on the team (too young to speak out, have to return to that locker room in the future). He said they were on the verge of something special, knew they needed him (and not Huntley) to get there. Urged the team to make him a deal, urged Lamar to sign a deal, do whatever it takes to get him out there that night. Admitted he was being selfish but that's how he felt. 

 

Sammy Watkins hopes Lamar Jackson "decides to play" - NBC Sports

 

 

 

But sure, lets continue to ignore the words of teammates, coaches, the GM. Let's ignore past precedents set by worse quarterbacks who get severe injuries in a contract year and still get paid record setting money based on what they have done. Even though Mahomes goes out and wins 3 games after missing a whole 1 drive with a 4–6-week injury, let's assume a hobbled Lamar is just a terrible option. Let's bend thy knee for putting himself first. Mahomes should have done the same thing and given the reigns to Chad Henne. What an idiot. Doesn't he know anything about business? What if he hurt his ankle worse, tore the ligaments, had an awful rehab like Ronnie Stanley? Oh my god, he might never get a third really big contract!!! It's a buisnezz!!! What was he doing?!?!?! Thank you, Lamar! slurp slurp slurp. 

[Biggsy]

But sure, lets continue to ignore the words of teammates, coaches, the GM. Let's ignore past precedents set by worse quarterbacks who get severe injuries in a contract year and still get paid record setting money based on what they have done. Even though Mahomes goes out and wins 3 games after missing a whole 1 drive with a 4–6-week injury, let's assume a hobbled Lamar is just a terrible option. Let's bend thy knee for putting himself first. Mahomes should have done the same thing and given the reigns to Chad Henne. What an idiot. Doesn't he know anything about business? What if he hurt his ankle worse, tore the ligaments, had an awful rehab like Ronnie Stanley? Oh my god, he might never get a third really big contract!!! It's a buisnezz!!! What was he doing?!?!?! Thank you, Lamar! slurp slurp slurp.

A lot of shots thrown my way here. I'm on your side as far as thinking he sat out when he could have played. I also understand why he sat out. He's not Patrick Mahomes who is arguably already the best QB of this generation. Mahomes can get hurt and still get a massive deal. Lamar's not him. His legs are what make him special. Take one of those out, and create questions about whether he'll maintain the same mobility, and you have a massive hit on the initial length of the contract he's going to recieve. Not sure why that's so hard to believe.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I think it has been. How I've described their arguments as people saying he was 'healthy enough to play without major chance of worsening the injury' seems very similar to what you're describing as "close to 100%". And people are arguing that's what happened. I dismiss that entirely. Anyone with a heart would be done with Lamar forever if he did that in a playoff game. But the Ravens and his teammates weren't done with Lamar. They paid him. There hasn't been any eye-rolling from teammates that I've noticed. That tells me that Lamar had legit, medical reason to not play, and not just that he was holding out until he got paid.

Yeah this is where technically we may not be in the same place but for all intents and purposes we are. Lamar was still compromised and all parties involved knew it. He wouldnt have been able to be Lamar on the football field and all parties knew it. So any narrative spun that he quit on the team is BS and you're 100% right if the organization and teammates felt that way he wouldnt have been back. I think that part of your argument cant be disputed. Btw he had plenty of teammates supporting him immediately in the wake of the Cincy loss. When everything got really contentious over the offseason that was the time where if he had crossed a line with his teammates we wouldve heard much more chatter questioning his heart, ethics, character, etc. Articles wouldve popped up with sources talking to Preston, Hensley,etc.