167 replies to this topic

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Btw its remarkable that they won that title in '98 with all the drama going on and a 35 yr old MJ being worked to death. If Jordan doesnt go into GOAT mode the last 50 sec of game 6 its hard to see how they would've won game 7.

[mweb08]

Horace makes a fair point imo about MJ being a snitch on his teammates from his rookie year.

He also makes a fair point imo when he asks why Scottie not going in the game was a part of the doc. It's not that relevant to the overall story that they were trying to tell, but if you're going to feature it, I think perhaps more should have been made of how good that Pippen led team was without MJ and that they got completely screwed on a last second play that gave the Knicks the lead in game 5, which wasn't even mentioned.

His other fair point imo is the broader point, which is that this doc has a bias to it.

But obviously Horace isn't the biggest fan of MJ, so he has his own bias.

[mweb08]

Btw its remarkable that they won that title in '98 with all the drama going on and a 35 yr old MJ being worked to death. If Jordan doesnt go into GOAT mode the last 50 sec of game 6 its hard to see how they would've won game 7.

That was definitely epic.

That Bulls' team really wasn't all that great, even with a healthy Pippen. Btw, how do the Jazz not adjust their gameplan when they see how hurt Pippen is?

That Jazz team wasn't that great either, though.

[BSLChrisStoner]

It's not directly The Last Dance related... but I had forgotten without looking it up, how strange the following season was. 
https://en.wikipedia...8–99_NBA_season

[SportsGuy]

It would have been interesting to see if they could have beaten the Spurs.

I wish we had those middle 2 years back.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

If Jordan plays every full season in the 90s I think they would've won 1 more. Maybe even 2 more.

[SBTarheel]

It would have been interesting to see if they could have beaten the Spurs.

I wish we had those middle 2 years back.

Rockets won both titles..unless I'm misunderstanding. 

 

Wait, do you mean '99? Or '94 and '95? 

[BSLChrisStoner]

Rockets won both titles..unless I'm misunderstanding.

Wait, do you mean '99? Or '94 and '95?

It would have been interesting to see the Bulls vs Spurs in 98-99.

And he wishes we had the the two years back when Houston won their titles.

[mweb08]

Regarding those middle two years...

You know who gave up on defending a three peat besides Bulls' management?

Michael Jordan.

Oh, and he did play in the 2nd year, and they lost.

It's funny the way some talk about it, it's like he was Ted Williams going off to war. He chose to retire and he did so because he was burned out. Being exhausted enough to retire isn't a great sign for winning every year going forward to the next century if said retirement didn't happen.

[SBTarheel]

It would have been interesting to see the Bulls vs Spurs in 98-99.

And he wishes we had the the two years back when Houston won their titles.

Ha. Ok, so both was the correct answer. 

[BSLChrisStoner]

Regarding those middle two years...

You know who gave up on defending a three peat besides Bulls' management?

Michael Jordan.

Oh, and he did play in the 2nd year, and they lost.

It's funny the way some talk about it, it's like he was Ted Williams going off to war. He chose to retire and he did so because he was burned out. Being exhausted enough to retire isn't a great sign for winning every year going forward to the next century if said retirement didn't happen.

Well his father was murdered and he had slayed every dragon... but that is fair.

Maybe without that time away to recharge, find new challenges...he doesn't get the second 3peat.

But he was the best, stepped away, came back and was again the best.

Wins another 3 titles, again leaves as still the best player in the game...

Comes back several years later and averages 24 a game (as a starter) and as an old guy.

Just ridiculous.


Regarding that 98-99 season, I had forgot the lockout, the Knicks winning the East as the 8th seed, and Malone winning another MVP.

[mweb08]

Well his father was murdered and he had slayed every dragon... but that is fair.

Maybe without that time away to recharge, find new challenges...he doesn't get the second 3peat.

But he was the best, stepped away, came back and was again the best.

Wins another 3 titles, again leaves as still the best player in the game...

Comes back several years later and averages 24 a game (as a starter) and as an old guy.

Just ridiculous.


Regarding that 98-99 season, I had forgot the lockout, the Knicks winning the East as the 8th seed, and Malone winning another MVP.

I wouldn't really include the Wizards part in this but yes, MJ was amazing. I still think he's the GOAT, but I think it's close, and I don't buy into Jordan mythology to the degree that some do.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Regarding those middle two years...

You know who gave up on defending a three peat besides Bulls' management?

Michael Jordan.

Oh, and he did play in the 2nd year, and they lost.

It's funny the way some talk about it, it's like he was Ted Williams going off to war. He chose to retire and he did so because he was burned out. Being exhausted enough to retire isn't a great sign for winning every year going forward to the next century if said retirement didn't happen.

I doubt he retires in '93 if his father isn't murdered. Yes, he was burnt out and yes he had talked about playing baseball before his father's murder. Its not hard to speculate that he only played baseball to fulfill his dead fathers dream. If he had continued to play the man ultimately would have found the motivation come June. He always found the motivation. You cant hold '95 against him. Had he played the full year hes in basketball shape in June and Chicago is likely the #1 seed.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Well his father was murdered and he had slayed every dragon... but that is fair.

Maybe without that time away to recharge, find new challenges...he doesn't get the second 3peat.

But he was the best, stepped away, came back and was again the best.

Wins another 3 titles, again leaves as still the best player in the game...

Comes back several years later and averages 24 a game (as a starter) and as an old guy.

Just ridiculous.


Regarding that 98-99 season, I had forgot the lockout, the Knicks winning the East as the 8th seed, and Malone winning another MVP.

I'll never buy that he needed the time off to recharge. Or that it was necessary for him to 3 peat again. Doesn't mean they win 8 straight but it wouldn't have been because MJ lacked motivation once he stepped on the court.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I'll never buy that he needed the time off to recharge. Or that it was necessary for him to 3 peat again. Doesn't mean they win 8 straight but it wouldn't have been because MJ needed to be motivated once he stepped on the court.

Yeah, tend to agree.

[mweb08]

I doubt he retires in '93 if his father isn't murdered. Yes, he was burnt out and yes he had talked about playing baseball before his father's murder. Its not hard to speculate that he only played baseball to fulfill his dead fathers dream. If he had continued to play the man ultimately would have found the motivation come June. He always found the motivation. You cant hold '95 against him. Had he played the full year hes in basketball shape in June and Chicago is likely the #1 seed.

Pretty much everything I've heard from sources I respect say he was physically and mentally exhausted and that's the primary reason he retired.

And yes, 95 should count. He came back with the intention of winning a title. Many people thought they would win once he came back too. It's fine to put a caveat on it, but to pretend it didn't even happen is akin to worshipping at the church of MJ.

[SportsGuy]

Rockets won both titles..unless I'm misunderstanding. 
 
Wait, do you mean '99? Or '94 and '95? 

I’m saying I wish he didn’t retire the first time and we had those 2 seasons back.

Definitely feel there are at least 7 titles and maybe 8...of course, that’s assuming they kept the together, he didn’t burn out later, etc...

[SportsGuy]

Pretty much everything I've heard from sources I respect say he was physically and mentally exhausted and that's the primary reason he retired.
And yes, 95 should count. He came back with the intention of winning a title. Many people thought they would win once he came back too. It's fine to put a caveat on it, but to pretend it didn't even happen is akin to worshipping at the church of MJ.

95 counts because it happened...but it wasn’t the real Jordan and it wasn’t the real Bulls.

He came back in mid March.

Had he been back in January, I would put more weight into it.

And I always find it amusing that you seem to get irritated with how people feel about MJ.

[mweb08]

95 counts because it happened...but it wasn’t the real Jordan and it wasn’t the real Bulls.

He came back in mid March.

Had he been back in January, I would put more weight into it.

And I always find it amusing that you seem to get irritated with how people feel about MJ.

Well he came back when he decided to come back, so that's on him.

You're right that the team wasn't as good if that's what you mean by saying they weren't the real Bulls since they lost Horace and had yet to acquire Rodman. I'm always willing and able to evaluate strength of teams (and opponents) when judging stars on their team success. Too bad that's far from the norm with more common fans. So I don't bash him for not winning that year, but the six in a row narrative that is sometimes pushed is simply not reality.

I'm not irritated by how people feel about Jordan; feel however you want. But when people attempt to articulate arguments, sure, people deifying him at the expense of logic can be annoying.

[SportsGuy]

He wasnt in proper shape at that point.

No, the team wasn’t as good around him but it was good enough that I think they win if he’s back a few months before.

I don’t think you overlook it but it’s also not anything I would remotely hold against him...ala LeBron losing to Dallas for example.