513 replies to this topic

[Mike in STL]

Apparently the buyout goes up for more than just a sweet 16.

https://247sports.co...-163838917/Amp/

$1M increase for outright or tie for regular season big ten champ. $1M for big ten tourney title.
$1M for sweet 16 appearance
$1M for elite 8 appearance
75% of remaining annual base salary for final four.

The money is also per year. So if he ties for the big ten regular season title his buyout goes up $1M each of the years left, not just the next year.

If he pulls a rabbit out of his hat this upcoming year and wins the big ten regular season, and tourney, and let’s say goes to the elite 8, he will have earned a longer leash, but also you add $4M on top of every years buyout, includes $4M on the final year where he doesn’t have a buyout currently.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Lol that is not happening. Nor should it.

Lets talk in 2 or 3 years

[Mackus]

Apparently the buyout goes up for more than just a sweet 16.

https://247sports.co...-163838917/Amp/

$1M increase for outright or tie for regular season big ten champ. $1M for big ten tourney title.
$1M for sweet 16 appearance
$1M for elite 8 appearance
75% of remaining annual base salary for final four.

The money is also per year. So if he ties for the big ten regular season title his buyout goes up $1M each of the years left, not just the next year.

If he pulls a rabbit out of his hat this upcoming year and wins the big ten regular season, and tourney, and let’s say goes to the elite 8, he will have earned a longer leash, but also you add $4M on top of every years buyout, includes $4M on the final year where he doesn’t have a buyout currently.

 

I'm fine with the escalators.  

[BSLZackKiesel]

I was leaning in favor of giving Turgeon one more season before making a final decision on his future. This deal obviously isn't as friendly to the university as I thought it might be, but as long as it isn't used as an excuse as to why they can't fire him if the 2021-22 season is a disappointment then it should be fine. But if costs are cited as a prohibitive reason as to why they can't move on from Turgeon (or why they cheap out on a new coach) then that's unacceptable.

[Mackus]

 as long as it isn't used as an excuse as to why they can't fire him if the 2021-22 season is a disappointment then it should be fine. But if costs are cited as a prohibitive reason as to why they can't move on from Turgeon (or why they cheap out on a new coach) then that's unacceptable.

 

Yes, this is the key.

 

I think it's very reasonable for people to fear the rationale you cite and expect that this contract makes him unfireable unless something outside of basketball happens for the next 3 seasons. 

[Mike in STL]

I'm fine with the escalators.  

I'd rather the incentive be money in his pocket. That is incentive to perform better.

 

The incentive here is it will cost them more to fire him. So if he performs good this year and hits some escalators, he can suck for the next four years and MD is locked in. That's not really incentive to perform better long term. 

[Mackus]

I'd rather the incentive be money in his pocket. That is incentive to perform better.

 

The incentive here is it will cost them more to fire him. So if he performs good this year and hits some escalators, he can suck for the next four years and MD is locked in. That's not really incentive to perform better long term. 

 

There are certainly escalators that put money in his pocket as well.  He had such bonuses in his previous deals.  No chance that they took them out.

[Mike in STL]

Is the $36M basketball performance center done being built yet? 

https://www.baltimor...icwu-story.html

 

According to Maryland's website its still artist renderings and "the future" and stuff. I know there is a pandemic. But the above article from 2019 said they have raised $19M of the $36M for the project that will be completely donor funded (boosters, right). So are boosters withholding what it takes to complete the project unless their demands are met? (Extension for their good buddy Mark Turgeon?). That's how these things work I assume? Could be years until they raise another $17M, right?

 

Also the naming rights are ridiculous. If we raise just a measly $10M we can name it the Baltimore Sports and Life Message Board Maryland Basketball Performance Center. I'm guessing Maryland thinks they are still a relevant program and some big corporation will just Venmo them $10M to put their name on the building. Like they are the Ravens or something. 

[Mike in STL]

There are certainly escalators that put money in his pocket as well.  He had such bonuses in his previous deals.  No chance that they took them out.

Yeah, but not nearly as big. He gets $25K if they make the NCAA Tournament. To us that's great money. To him it's, eh, fine.

[Mackus]

So if it was a $10M bonus for making the Final 4, you think Turgeon coaches the program differently (assuming still within the rules)?

[You Play to Win the Game]

There's no excusing the extension as constructed. None. He should have been gone years ago, if the University actually still wanted big things out of it's basketball program. Clearly, they don't. For better or worse, the boosters are all aboard the Turgeon train, and we are now basically Iowa. Or Virginia Tech in the ACC. 

[Mike in STL]

So if it was a $10M bonus for making the Final 4, you think Turgeon coaches the program differently (assuming still within the rules)?

Wouldn't you? Wouldn't you take a hard look at yourself and wonder what can we do different to get to that level? Would you maybe change your attitude that being in the round of 32 is some kind of accomplishment? Would you challenge your team for tough games in March by scheduling tough games early instead of inflating your career record by trying to start each season 12-0, 11-1, so that being average in the conference is good enough to get in the dance?

 

John Harbaugh sleeps in his office a couple days a week during the season when preparing for a game. Does Turge? To each coach their own. If he's not, and the $10M offer comes on the table, I would all of a sudden.

 

Players come and go, results have been relatively the same. Who's that fall on? Who does the blame fall on when they lose? Often according to Turge, the players, which might be the thing that irks me the most about Turge. Rarely takes accountability. 

 

So yeah, if Turgeon wouldn't try a different approach if this hypothetical $10M bonus is on the table, he's an idiot. If he thinks he can get to a final four the way he currently operates, then he can't see the forrest through the trees. 

[Mackus]

I just can't get remotely close to agreeing with the thought that a main reason Turgeon hasn't produced enough is because he hasn't had enough incentives in his contract, and that this extension would be better if it had bigger incentives.  Makes no sense to me.

[Mike in STL]

I just can't get remotely close to agreeing with the thought that a main reason Turgeon hasn't produced enough is because he hasn't had enough incentives in his contract, and that this extension would be better if it had bigger incentives.  Makes no sense to me.

That's not at all what I said. I implied I'd rather the incentives go in his pocket, rather than make him un-fireable for the next 5 years. You asked if the bonus for a final four was an insane amount of money, would he change how he coaches? Wouldn't anyone?

 

NASA will give you $10M if you hit benchmarks you have never reached before. Benchmarks seemingly out of reach for you actually, Are you going to go about your workday as usual?

 

Turge can tie for the regular season Big Ten Title, fail to make the weekend in BTT again, and make it to the sweet 16 as 5 seed beating a 12 then a 13 seed, then lose. His buyout in this scenario goes up $2M per year on top of the already set amounts, and if the previous years are an indicator, he's locked in for four more years because Maryland has no money. If previous years are an indicator he'll continue accomplishing nothing of note and we'll be having this same conversation in 2025, and he'll get another extension. 

 

The contract sucks.

[Mackus]

Maybe we're not communicating well, but it seems like exactly what you're saying to me.  That you think he'd do better if he had financial incentives to do better.  That simply being a highly competitive, professional coach for decades isn't enough to get him trying his best and hardest.  

 

I think he's trying absolutely as hard as he can and that the style of coach that he is really can't be changed.  I don't think telling him he'll get a big fat check if he reaches the Elite Eight or Final Four will make him do anything remarkably different.  He's already doing things the best way he knows how.  If he thought he could change something and achieve those goals, he already would've made those changes.  Lack of motivation is not in any way the problem.  Make the hypothetical incentive large enough and maybe you could convince him to try cheating, but short of that, I think he's doing everything the best he knows how.

 

The contract sucks.

[BSLMikeLowe]

That's not at all what I said. I implied I'd rather the incentives go in his pocket, rather than make him un-fireable for the next 5 years. You asked if the bonus for a final four was an insane amount of money, would he change how he coaches? Wouldn't anyone?

 

NASA will give you $10M if you hit benchmarks you have never reached before. Benchmarks seemingly out of reach for you actually, Are you going to go about your workday as usual?

 

Turge can tie for the regular season Big Ten Title, fail to make the weekend in BTT again, and make it to the sweet 16 as 5 seed beating a 12 then a 13 seed, then lose. His buyout in this scenario goes up $2M per year on top of the already set amounts, and if the previous years are an indicator, he's locked in for four more years because Maryland has no money. If previous years are an indicator he'll continue accomplishing nothing of note and we'll be having this same conversation in 2025, and he'll get another extension. 

 

The contract sucks.

Turgeon coaches how he coaches because he believes that is how he is most likely to succeed, even if 10 seasons of mediocre results prove otherwise.  Short of mandating, in specific words, how he will coach the team in his contract, he’s not going to change, no matter how big a carrot you dangle in front of him.

[hallas]

That's not at all what I said. I implied I'd rather the incentives go in his pocket, rather than make him un-fireable for the next 5 years. You asked if the bonus for a final four was an insane amount of money, would he change how he coaches? Wouldn't anyone?

NASA will give you $10M if you hit benchmarks you have never reached before. Benchmarks seemingly out of reach for you actually, Are you going to go about your workday as usual?

Turge can tie for the regular season Big Ten Title, fail to make the weekend in BTT again, and make it to the sweet 16 as 5 seed beating a 12 then a 13 seed, then lose. His buyout in this scenario goes up $2M per year on top of the already set amounts, and if the previous years are an indicator, he's locked in for four more years because Maryland has no money. If previous years are an indicator he'll continue accomplishing nothing of note and we'll be having this same conversation in 2025, and he'll get another extension.

The contract sucks.

I'm not really sure why we care that Turgeon gets 1 million in cash, versus guaranteeing 1 million more in total contract value. They are both more or less the same, except that adding to his buyout is limited by his remaining salary. Besides, if he takes Maryland to the Final Four, which would for all intents and purposes make his contract fully guaranteed, most people would say we got our money's worth, even if he immediately goes 15-15 afterwards.

[Mike in STL]

Maybe we're not communicating well, but it seems like exactly what you're saying to me. That you think he'd do better if he had financial incentives to do better. That simply being a highly competitive, professional coach for decades isn't enough to get him trying his best and hardest.

I think he's trying absolutely as hard as he can and that the style of coach that he is really can't be changed. I don't think telling him he'll get a big fat check if he reaches the Elite Eight or Final Four will make him do anything remarkably different. He's already doing things the best way he knows how. If he thought he could change something and achieve those goals, he already would've made those changes. Lack of motivation is not in any way the problem. Make the hypothetical incentive large enough and maybe you could convince him to try cheating, but short of that, I think he's doing everything the best he knows how.

The contract sucks.

I’m not going to question his work ethic because frankly, we don’t know. And no, I don’t think giving someone incentive laden contracts automatically makes them do better. But there is a reason teams do put incentives in the deals. Money is a motivator for some. I’m just afraid that instead of UMD having to fork over $1M up front for him hitting a benchmark, they’ll be handcuffing themselves again. “Can’t afford to buy him out now, might as well extend him,” they’ll say after one good year out of five.

[hallas]

I’m not going to question his work ethic because frankly, we don’t know. And no, I don’t think giving someone incentive laden contracts automatically makes them do better. But there is a reason teams do put incentives in the deals. Money is a motivator for some. I’m just afraid that instead of UMD having to fork over $1M up front for him hitting a benchmark, they’ll be handcuffing themselves again. “Can’t afford to buy him out now, might as well extend him,” they’ll say after one good year out of five.

If they can't afford to buy him out because of the escalator then they can't afford to buy him out if the escalator were a cash bonus instead, because in both scenarios the same amount of money has left Maryland's Bank account.

Edit to add: that's not to say that I would agree with them choosing to extend him because he hit one escalator and then sucked the other 3 or 4 years. Rather I think that the excuse would be bulls***. Frankly the current buyout structure is about as school friendly as you can get while still holding weight as a real extension.

[Mackus]

I’m just afraid that instead of UMD having to fork over $1M up front for him hitting a benchmark, they’ll be handcuffing themselves again. “Can’t afford to buy him out now, might as well extend him,” they’ll say after one good year out of five.

 

Absolutely agree with this conclusion.