408 replies to this topic

[JordanKough]

Is anyone in on Mangold? Or are the Ravens just waiting out his market too? 

[NewMarketSean]

So you've got a great defense. What should you do on offense? Run the ball. Keep them rested. Control the TOP.

 

This Flacco as Brady Halloween costume needs to be put into the trashcan and burned.

[bnickle]

So you've got a great defense. What should you do on offense? Run the ball. Keep them rested. Control the TOP.

 

This Flacco as Brady Halloween costume needs to be put into the trashcan and burned.

Yes, run the ball and take shots down the field off PA. The best offensive philosophy for Joe  is the one we had under Cam Cameron. I'll take the SB title every day for the last 4 years. Totally worth it. That said, the run Joe put up that year has hurt us since. Every OC except Kubiak saw it and decided  that he was capable of spreading out the offense, making reads, and chucking it 550+ times a year. Maybe he deserved that shot to prove he wasn't elite but it should be pretty evident now he's limited. 

[NewMarketSean]

So you've got a great defense. What should you do on offense? Run the ball. Keep them rested. Control the TOP.   This Flacco as Brady Halloween costume needs to be put into the trashcan and burned.

Yes, run the ball and take shots down the field off PA. The best offensive philosophy for Joe  is the one we had under Cam Cameron. 

Full circle. Pining for the days of CC. I get what you're saying but still. It's sad that it's come to that with Flacco. In many ways we want Flacco to become the rookie he was like we wish Melo was the player he was as a freshman.

[bnickle]

Full circle. Pining for the days of CC. I get what you're saying but still. It's sad that it's come to that with Flacco. In many ways we want Flacco to become the rookie he was like we wish Melo was the player he was as a freshman.

it doesn't necessarily have to be the CC offense. Kubiak proved that. But the philosophy has to bethe same. Run the ball, PA, and limiting his control at the LOS. Make the reads as easy as possible. 

[GabeFerguson]

Yup, when Claiborne for cheap didn't develop, I don't blame the Ravens and kind of thought they were looking at a more stable perspective.

 

RE: Gabe and the pass rush. Who would you have added? Obviously I think we both could advocate that Baker would have helped some, but there really wasn't an elite attainable pass rusher out there in the way we set up our cap. 

 

There just wasn't a ton out there to me in regards to pass rush...

 

So far I like what they've done overall. 

Yes, I would absolutely be higher on the team had they brought in Sheard and kept Wagner instead of re-signing Williams. I have no doubt it could have worked cap-wise. Maybe you don't sign Carr in that scenario, but I would much rather have stability along the OL and a proven pass-rusher. Unfortunately, there weren't a lot of options available at OLB. I'd be trying to bring in a vet still, maybe even Dumervil on a lesser deal if he is willing. Trent Cole is another option.

 

Regarding the OTs, I think Bushrod was recently signed and Clady might be too expensive,also has trouble with health and decline. Pasztor is probably the best option although he might be too pricy as well.

 

 

Ravens arent in on Mangold. I like how the Ravens are approaching this offseason. Load up on defense. Make it great. The offense has a limited upside with Flacco as QB. You could give him the Cowboys complete offense around him and he'd undoubtedly put up better numbers but it still wouldn't be an explosive offense.  He's too inconsistent. I have no problem hitting the bargin bin on offense. Patch up the holes with cheaper vets and a  few draft picks. 

Hard to be a great defense without a pass-rush. We saw that last year. Smith getting hurt was a factor as well, for sure, but the top QBs are going to pick apart even the best secondary if they aren't facing any pressure.

[JordanKough]

Ultimately, I'd rather have Wagner and Baker here than Williams too, but I really don't think the drop-off from that is so vividly significant as you make it. 

 

Yes, we'll need to scheme up better but I think we have a personnel that could do that now too...

[GabeFerguson]

Ultimately, I'd rather have Wagner and Baker here than Williams too, but I really don't think the drop-off from that is so vividly significant as you make it. 

 

Yes, we'll need to scheme up better but I think we have a personnel that could do that now too...

Our pass-rush was miserable last year. Adding someone like Sheard who has shown consistent productivity as an edge rusher would have been a real improvement especially in combination with a high draft pick. 

 

I don't know what to think about the front 7 right now because there are so many unknowns. They'll be very good against the run, but how they scheme a pass-rush will be critical.

[bnickle]

You have to give Judon, Kafusi, and Correa a shot. They also might draft an edge rusher and or bring in a specialist. As has been said, the offseason is a long ways from over. And still the defense is better today than it was last year.

[JordanKough]

Our pass-rush was miserable last year. Adding someone like Sheard who has shown consistent productivity as an edge rusher would have been a real improvement especially in combination with a high draft pick. 

 

So I think in a lot of ways this is the semantic point that I'm stuck on. Sure it'd be "a real improvement" but how much that translates to overall wins and losses, IMO is a bit muted. Outside of the QB position, each individual position can and will be adjusted for by other teams. 

 

Also you misunderstood my point about the pass rush. Our pass rush was miserable last year and we were still top 10 defense. A point you and Rob both made when referencing the quality play of Webb. Given Doom sucked last year, we're really looking at the same personnel minus Orr but plus Carr and plus up from Jefferson all around. And really zero change in the pass rush overall from the final results last year. 

 

I think the baseline for the year before we even hit the draft or see significant Year 1 to Year 2 development in regards to any pass rush is a top 10 defense. And it could potentially go up from there. 

[GabeFerguson]

You have to give Judon, Kafusi, and Correa a shot. They also might draft an edge rusher and or bring in a specialist. As has been said, the offseason is a long ways from over. And still the defense is better today than it was last year.

 

What exactly makes it better? The addition of Carr? I don't see him as anything more than a solid starter. He certainly helps the depth, but he's also had some real struggles the past couple years. Wright wasn't a disaster last year, he had his moments of bad play, but he also had some bright moments as well.  I doubt Tony Jefferson is going to be a big improvement over Webb. The defense will be different, I'm not sure it will be better without any noticeable improvements to the pass-rush.

 

Now, if the young pass-rushers do develop than the defense may be better, but the one big flaw in last year's defense is still there.

So I think in a lot of ways this is the semantic point that I'm stuck on. Sure it'd be "a real improvement" but how much that translates to overall wins and losses, IMO is a bit muted. Outside of the QB position, each individual position can and will be adjusted for by other teams. 

 

Also you misunderstood my point about the pass rush. Our pass rush was miserable last year and we were still top 10 defense. A point you and Rob both made when referencing the quality play of Webb. Given Doom sucked last year, we're really looking at the same personnel minus Orr but plus Carr and plus up from Jefferson all around. And really zero change in the pass rush overall from the final results last year. 

 

I think the baseline for the year before we even hit the draft or see significant Year 1 to Year 2 development in regards to any pass rush is a top 10 defense. And it could potentially go up from there. 

 

I guess when I see Brady, Roethlisberger, Dalton etc sit in a pocket and face 0 pressure play after play, finding someone who can consistently get after the QB would make a very tangible difference. If Dumervil was healthy last year I think the D would have been a lot better. If the defense in 2017 is a top 10 defense, but still can't stop opposing QBs in big games then we still have a major problem and it will severely limit how good the team can be.

[JordanKough]

Yeah...there is no guy other than Von Miller who "consistently" gets after the QB.  

 

McPhee / Suggs / Jernigan / Doom had their shot at Brady plus a 14 point lead twice...and we still lost. We've beaten Roethlisberger plenty the last few years with pretty mediocre pressure...

 

This is why I'm not hard up to sell out to the theory that pressure is the ONLY way to beat those guys. Just because we didn't get more pressure guys is not a death sentence to this team or defense. 

 

Pressure is great, but it's not a panacea.

[GabeFerguson]

Yeah...there is no guy other than Von Miller who "consistently" gets after the QB.  

 

McPhee / Suggs / Jernigan / Doom had their shot at Brady plus a 14 point lead twice...and we still lost. We've beaten Roethlisberger plenty the last few years with pretty mediocre pressure...

 

This is why I'm not hard up to sell out to the theory that pressure is the ONLY way to beat those guys. Just because we didn't get more pressure guys is not a death sentence to this team or defense. 

 

Pressure is great, but it's not a panacea.

There are a lot of edge rushers out there who can elevate a defense. Doesn't have to be elite, but there has to be a threat at least

 

You can't be 30th in the league in pressure rate and be successful as a defense. You can be average and have a great secondary, but I don't see the personnel on the current roster to suggest the pass-rush will even be average in 2017. Same caveat though, maybe Judon/Kaufusi/Correa/Rookie become that guy.

[GabeFerguson]

Carr's deal:

 

$23M, $4M signing bonus, salaries $2M, $4.5M, $4.5M, $4.5M; final three years are all option years.

 

So cap hit should be $3M in 2017. I guess the rest is incentives/roster bonuses?

 

Edit: Yes

 

Roster bonuses of $1M in 2018, $1.5M in 2019 and 2020.

[JordanKough]

I'm very happy with that deal at those numbers. 

[GabeFerguson]

Yeah, I like the deal, only $4M bonus is great.

[GabeFerguson]

Claiborne got 1yr/$5M. I would rather have Claiborne's talent, but $5M may not have been tenable for the Ravens cap situation.

[JordanKough]

I like the health streak for him. Claiborne has never played a full 16. We don't need another Smith, we needed a guy to stay on the field.

 

That being said, I'm sure we'd have been willing to give Claiborne 2/10 with a $4 mill bonus, $1 mill base to spread the hit out over two years which would really have been a 1/5 anyway...or even a 3+ for a bigger deal that had the out clause to get out of it. We could have made the cap hit work. I think they preferred the stability. 

[SportsGuy]

Yea, I think thy signed Carr because they wanted someone here next year too.

Smart move by MC to take the deal he did.

Tough market for CB with so much talent in the draft.

[Mike B]

I like the Carr signing,   Especially at the price.   He does not have the upside of Claiborne, but also does not have the floor of Claiborne.

Carr is durable and I think with Jimmy on the other side we needed durable.