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#41 Cisc-O's

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 12:22 AM

So you think because he bats lead off, he changes his approach?
<p>I am pretty sure Shack is thinking of PBR.

#42 RShack

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 03:17 AM

So you think because he bats lead off, he changes his approach?

 

I think so... not that he intends to, but I think it happens anyway... same thing when he bats 3rd... I think batting 2nd is where we see the most unadulterated him... (but I can't prove any of this...)


 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#43 SportsGuy

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 08:53 AM


So you think because he bats lead off, he changes his approach?


Most players stupidly change their approach depending on where they are in the lineup.

#44 JefffrO

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 10:20 AM

I think so... not that he intends to, but I think it happens anyway... same thing when he bats 3rd... I think batting 2nd is where we see the most unadulterated him... (but I can't prove any of this...)

I agree but I feel it is done on purpose to a degree, I mean the team is asking him to be the table setter leading off. It is a different mindset for sure. He is a better #2 hitter but I feel that is Machados spot so.... The Orioles really need a true lead off man and maybe De Aza can give that to them at least vs right handed pitching. The great thing about Markakis is he bats just as well vs lefties.



#45 RShack

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 04:07 PM

I don't think it is intentional at all... if you ask him, he will say no, and I don't think he's lying, I think he's telling the truth as best he knows it...

 

I think what happens is that, when you grow up following baseball, you have a ghost in your head telling you what the job of each slot is... and so you accidentally try to live up to that responsibility... you don't even know you're doing it... and you may even be mentally trying to not do it... but you do it anyway, no matter what...


 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#46 SportsGuy

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 04:14 PM

I don't think it is intentional at all... if you ask him, he will say no, and I don't think he's lying, I think he's telling the truth as best he knows it...
 
I think what happens is that, when you grow up following baseball, you have a ghost in your head telling you what the job of each slot is... and so you accidentally try to live up to that responsibility... you don't even know you're doing it... and you may even be mentally trying to not do it... but you do it anyway, no matter what...


Nick has said he changes his approach...most players do.
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#47 JefffrO

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 04:31 PM

I don't think it is intentional at all... if you ask him, he will say no, and I don't think he's lying, I think he's telling the truth as best he knows it...

 

I think what happens is that, when you grow up following baseball, you have a ghost in your head telling you what the job of each slot is... and so you accidentally try to live up to that responsibility... you don't even know you're doing it... and you may even be mentally trying to not do it... but you do it anyway, no matter what...

Well really no matter if he takes a different approach or not he is taking one for the team cause as the lead off hitter you will not be in RBI situations nearly as often as if you batted 3-7. The 1 slot gives up stats like RBI and even HR'S cause it is the job of the 1 slot to get on base for your big RBI guys. That is obvious. Not mention Nick knows why he is batting one it is because the Orioles lack a true table setter and he is their best option. He knows the power behind him and excepts his role. Cause he is a true professional and team player.



#48 mweb08

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 04:39 PM

I'm not sure that most players change their approach based on their spot in the lineup.

#49 RShack

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 04:44 PM

Nick has said he changes his approach...most players do.

 

I had no idea... and clearly would have guessed otherwise...

 

Do you have a link?  (I'm not doubting you or trying to put you on the spot, I'm just curious about what he actually said, that's all...)


 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#50 SportsGuy

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 04:47 PM

I have heard him say it interviews.

Basically, when he hits at the top of the lineup, he feels his job is to get on base. When he bats third, he thinks his job is to drive in runs.

Matt Wieters talked about it before as well...feels the best place in the lineup is when he bats third. He said his approach is the best in that spot.

You hear that from guys all the time.

#51 RShack

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 04:53 PM

Re: Wieters... I wonder how batting 3rd changes what he thinks he's supposed to do vs. batting 5th or 6th... what might that diff be?  Seems to me, it's the same job, it's just different status... it's not like the diff between 1 and 3 where you can easily understand how people think the job description is different...


 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#52 mweb08

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 05:05 PM

Sometimes when guys says things like that, I think it's just typical sports cliche talk rather than it really meaning much of anything. Some guys may say something to that effect, but you can't really notice it in practice. Also, adjusting ones approach based on the game situation makes more sense than adjusting based on where you're in the lineup.

#53 JefffrO

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 05:09 PM

I have heard him say it interviews.

Basically, when he hits at the top of the lineup, he feels his job is to get on base. When he bats third, he thinks his job is to drive in runs.

Matt Wieters talked about it before as well...feels the best place in the lineup is when he bats third. He said his approach is the best in that spot.

You hear that from guys all the time.

 

Makes sense, if not you would have Adam Jones batting first to give him as many at bats as possible cause he is your best game changer at the plate. Of coarse you don't want his approach to hitting leading off though.



#54 JefffrO

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 05:15 PM

Sometimes when guys says things like that, I think it's just typical sports cliche talk rather than it really meaning much of anything. Some guys may say something to that effect, but you can't really notice it in practice. Also, adjusting ones approach based on the game situation makes more sense than adjusting based on where you're in the lineup.

Interesting topic, I really thought this was a no brainer that the top spot in an order is gonna be a more patient and good on base guy that does not swing for the fence. Nick could hit for more HR and RBI IMO if he batted later in the lineup I would think.



#55 RShack

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 05:18 PM

Also, adjusting ones approach based on the game situation makes more sense than adjusting based on where you're in the lineup.

 

But there is precious little evidence that people's behavior is governed by what's rational... rather, people tend to come up with a rational justification for their behavior in a way that is very loosely coupled (if at all) with what really happened... in general, people are very poor judges of what the determinants of their behavior really are...


 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#56 mweb08

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 05:18 PM

Sometimes when guys says things like that, I think it's just typical sports cliche talk rather than it really meaning much of anything. Some guys may say something to that effect, but you can't really notice it in practice. Also, adjusting ones approach based on the game situation makes more sense than adjusting based on where you're in the lineup.

Interesting topic, I really thought this was a no brainer that the top spot in an order is gonna be a more patient and good on base guy that does not swing for the fence. Nick could hit for more HR and RBI IMO if he batted later in the lineup I would think.

I don't think Nick would hit for much, if any more power at this point in his career. Did it affect Brady's approach? And do you really think Adam would start walking if he bats leadoff? I think it affects some guys, but for the most part I'd guess that those effects are not dramatic.

#57 JefffrO

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 05:49 PM

I don't think Nick would hit for much, if any more power at this point in his career. Did it affect Brady's approach? And do you really think Adam would start walking if he bats leadoff? I think it affects some guys, but for the most part I'd guess that those effects are not dramatic.

I agree with the HR a bit. Markakis would get much better pitches to hit if he were in situations with RISP  which his attempts in them situations would go up more if he was not leading off and his approach to his team responsibilities would change hence he would be a bit more free swinging IMO. 

 

Nick had 8 HR with nobody on base in 434 AB'S 1 HR every 54.25 AB'S

He had 6 HR with people on base in 208 AB'S 1 HR every  34.67 AB'S

 

While Adam Jones numbers were not skewed that way at all to me showing it is where Nick is batting in the lineup that changes Nicks approach.

 

Adam HR with nobody on 17 HR'S in 358 AB'S   HR EVERY  21.06 AB'S

WITH PEOPLE ON BASE  12 HR'S in 286  HR EVERY  23.83 AB'S


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#58 RShack

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 06:06 PM

I agree with the HR a bit. Markakis would get much better pitches to hit if he were in situations with RISP  which his attempts in them situations would go up more if he was not leading off and his approach to his team responsibilities would change hence he would be a bit more free swinging IMO. 

 

Nick had 8 HR with nobody on base in 434 AB'S 1 HR every 54.25 AB'S

He had 6 HR with people on base in 208 AB'S 1 HR every  34.67 AB'S

 

I wonder if that changes much if you adjust for the AB's when he's leading off the game... (or leading off an inning...)

 

But I don't wonder about it enough to actually figure it out  ;-)


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 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#59 JefffrO

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 06:21 PM

I wonder if that changes much if you adjust for the AB's when he's leading off the game... (or leading off an inning...)

 

But I don't wonder about it enough to actually figure it out   :wink:

Not just about him leading off it is about his approach because of where he is in the lineup. Wanting to get on base for the big sticks behind him. He realizes what his job is on this team in that position.

 

BTW I am not saying I am right  and you are wrong just showing why I believe what I am saying. Glad to be talking something about baseball in November.



#60 mweb08

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 07:01 PM

Also, adjusting ones approach based on the game situation makes more sense than adjusting based on where you're in the lineup.

 
But there is precious little evidence that people's behavior is governed by what's rational... rather, people tend to come up with a rational justification for their behavior in a way that is very loosely coupled (if at all) with what really happened... in general, people are very poor judges of what the determinants of their behavior really are...

Agreed. However, the primary reasoning for people adjusting their approach based on lineup spot is likely the same for people to adjust their approach based on situation.




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