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#161 RShack

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 08:34 AM

I recently watched Lough go get a ball in the gap and turn it into an out, despite the fact that God intended it to be a double...  nobody else we might have in LF would have gotten to it... yet afterwards, Lough was shaking his head, which I interpreted as him being not happy about his jump or his route... so, he made an important play that nobody else could have, but he's upset with himself for not doing it better...

 

What are the calculations about hits prevented?   For a double prevented and turned into an out, is that worth the same as hitting a double?

 

Anybody know?


 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#162 PatrickDougherty

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 10:19 AM

Anybody know?

Defensive metrics aren't yet that granular, but Defensive Runs Saved is the closest you'll get and the Fielding Bible website, where DRS was created, keeps returning a 404 error, so I can't tell you how it's calculated. The relevant portion of DRS is:

  • Fielding Range Plus/Minus Runs Saved based on BIS-trained scorer observations and batted ball timing to determine the velocity of each batted ball.

 

I think your question requires a lot of context and it's relevant to understand where you want to find the value. Are you asking about an out being worth, in terms of run prevention, the same as hitting a double? Or are you asking about the generalized value to the team or on the FA market? And if it's the former, which I assume it is, do you consider all doubles to be worth equal amounts, or do you want to credit a double that scores a run or a catch that saves a run and penalize an out that wasn't at all productive? And how many outs were there when each occurred?

 

The best possible answer to your question, IMO, is RE24. RE24, or run expectancy for the 24 possible base-out scenarios, treats a player hitting a double as a + contribution, and last night's Snider double to lead off the 5th was worth 0.61 RE24. An out to start an inning is worth -0.21 RE24. So saving a double for the first out to lead off an inning is worth less in terms of run prevention than hitting a double to lead off an inning, but grounding out to end an inning with men on first and second is worth -0.40 RE24, and that number would go up with a man on third, and doubling with one out and no men on is worth 0.40 RE24.

 

(All of those figures are from last night's game against the Yankees, and I don't use RE24 enough to know if those are standard or roughly standard)

 

Lough's catch might have been worth as much as or more than hitting a double to RE24, but it's very much dependent on base-out state. WPA is like RE24, in that it's very much context-dependent. Comparing hitting and robbing a double in a vacuum is also difficult, because then you're really concerned with how often or with what degree of certainty and regularity a player can do one or the other. Delmon Young's robbing of A-Rod's home run, for instance, was a tremendously valuable play, but it's not a repeatable skill for Young, so while it's worth a lot in that instance, that is happened is not really worth much to the Orioles at literally any other time.

 

I hope that significantly muddies the water.


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#163 RShack

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 11:04 AM

Defensive metrics aren't yet that granular, but Defensive Runs Saved is the closest you'll get and the Fielding Bible website, where DRS was created, keeps returning a 404 error, so I can't tell you how it's calculated. The relevant portion of DRS is:

 

I think your question requires a lot of context and it's relevant to understand where you want to find the value. Are you asking about an out being worth, in terms of run prevention, the same as hitting a double? Or are you asking about the generalized value to the team or on the FA market? And if it's the former, which I assume it is, do you consider all doubles to be worth equal amounts, or do you want to credit a double that scores a run or a catch that saves a run and penalize an out that wasn't at all productive? And how many outs were there when each occurred?

 

The best possible answer to your question, IMO, is RE24. RE24, or run expectancy for the 24 possible base-out scenarios, treats a player hitting a double as a + contribution, and last night's Snider double to lead off the 5th was worth 0.61 RE24. An out to start an inning is worth -0.21 RE24. So saving a double for the first out to lead off an inning is worth less in terms of run prevention than hitting a double to lead off an inning, but grounding out to end an inning with men on first and second is worth -0.40 RE24, and that number would go up with a man on third, and doubling with one out and no men on is worth 0.40 RE24.

 

(All of those figures are from last night's game against the Yankees, and I don't use RE24 enough to know if those are standard or roughly standard)

 

Lough's catch might have been worth as much as or more than hitting a double to RE24, but it's very much dependent on base-out state. WPA is like RE24, in that it's very much context-dependent. Comparing hitting and robbing a double in a vacuum is also difficult, because then you're really concerned with how often or with what degree of certainty and regularity a player can do one or the other. Delmon Young's robbing of A-Rod's home run, for instance, was a tremendously valuable play, but it's not a repeatable skill for Young, so while it's worth a lot in that instance, that is happened is not really worth much to the Orioles at literally any other time.

 

I hope that significantly muddies the water.

 

Thanks for that...  

 

I was wondering in the most general, context-independent way if a guy who in the field turns a double into an out has contributed as much as if he hit a double... now, I understand that context matters... but when people look at OPS (or whatever) context doesn't matter at all... 

 

In the case of Lough running down a double in the gap and turning it into an out, that's not the same thing as Delmon robbing ARod, because in Lough's case it's part of who he is out there, that's what he does, it's not just some lucky thing...


 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#164 RShack

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 01:23 AM

I have a question about Buck's comments in the post-game pressers re: Lough.  

 

It seems to me that he tends to not say much about Lough's contributions to a game, and mainly mentions them when one of the reporters brings it up... then he kinda pooh-poohs them.  I've thought this the last 3 or 4 times he's mentioned Lough, with tonight's comment being pretty much the same.  

 

It also seems like there's been a number of times that Lough turned a double into an out by catching a flyball that would have ended up going to the wall if somebody else was in LF... but Buck never mentions those, even though he often does point out little D-things that maybe other people wouldn't notice and reporters wouldn't ask about.

 

Now, I am 100% sure that it seems like that to me... but I don't know how much of that is me vs. how much of that is real... so I'm doing some reality testing here...

 

Thoughts?


 "The only change is that baseball has turned Paige from a second-class citizen to a second-class immortal." - Satchel Paige


#165 bnickle

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 10:15 AM



I have a question about Buck's comments in the post-game pressers re: Lough.

It seems to me that he tends to not say much about Lough's contributions to a game, and mainly mentions them when one of the reporters brings it up... then he kinda pooh-poohs them. I've thought this the last 3 or 4 times he's mentioned Lough, with tonight's comment being pretty much the same.

It also seems like there's been a number of times that Lough turned a double into an out by catching a flyball that would have ended up going to the wall if somebody else was in LF... but Buck never mentions those, even though he often does point out little D-things that maybe other people wouldn't notice and reporters wouldn't ask about.

Now, I am 100% sure that it seems like that to me... but I don't know how much of that is me vs. how much of that is real... so I'm doing some reality testing here...

Thoughts?

Stop being paranoid and making things up.

#166 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 10:24 AM

I have a question about Buck's comments in the post-game pressers re: Lough.  

 

It seems to me that he tends to not say much about Lough's contributions to a game, and mainly mentions them when one of the reporters brings it up... then he kinda pooh-poohs them.  I've thought this the last 3 or 4 times he's mentioned Lough, with tonight's comment being pretty much the same.  

 

It also seems like there's been a number of times that Lough turned a double into an out by catching a flyball that would have ended up going to the wall if somebody else was in LF... but Buck never mentions those, even though he often does point out little D-things that maybe other people wouldn't notice and reporters wouldn't ask about.

 

Now, I am 100% sure that it seems like that to me... but I don't know how much of that is me vs. how much of that is real... so I'm doing some reality testing here...

 

Thoughts?

 

I don't think De Aza was DFAd without insight from Buck, and Lough is one of the benefactors... so there is that.


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#167 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 05:48 PM

WNST: Lough becomes latest Orioles outfielder to be designated for assignment






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