637 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

Just had takeout from The Helmand, and both Kelly and I thought it was fantastic!

[Mackus]

Helmand is indeed fantastic.

[NewMarketSean]

Went to The Point in Severna Park on the way home from the beach yesterday. Great location, good food...if I lived nearby I'd be a regular there for sure.

[Chris B]

Went to The Point in Severna Park on the way home from the beach yesterday. Great location, good food...if I lived nearby I'd be a regular there for sure.

 

Is this the same "The Point" group in Fells and Towson?

[NewMarketSean]

Is this the same "The Point" group in Fells and Towson?

IDK.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Hold my beer, Choptank.

 

https://twitter.com/...454296683737093

[Mackus]

Saw that. I think Tagliata is the only one of their restaurants I've been to, it was real good, but won't be visiting any of them moving forward. This isn't just one dumb manager, IMO, it's their general approach. I already wasn't going to Choptank because of the clearly racist dress code they tried to implement there (they've since revised). The rest of Broadway Market is amazing, everyone should go once they can.

[Chris B]

Top post on Reddit, too.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Saw that. I think Tagliata is the only one of their restaurants I've been to, it was real good, but won't be visiting any of them moving forward. This isn't just one dumb manager, IMO, it's their general approach. I already wasn't going to Choptank because of the clearly racist dress code they tried to implement there (they've since revised). The rest of Broadway Market is amazing, everyone should go once they can.

Ozuo Bay is nice. Maximon is fun. Azumi is my favorite local restaurant. 

I'm connected to the primary owner Alex Smith on LinkedIn, but don't know him. 

He posts a lot about investing into the City, how the City needs it... he's been aggressive in that regard. 

I believe they do a lot of donating to local causes. 


Last Summer they put out a dress code for The Choptank, and they got crushed for it.  People believed it to be racial in their intent. 

 

I think a dress code is fine.  But you can't pick and choose how you enforce.  That should be obvious.  That episode led to an ugly back-and-forth with The Sun critic. 

They also took a beating in some of their other restaurants during the last few months with workers saying they didn't feel safe health wise, but were required to be there. 

They also had some raised eyebrows with the Bygone, and having an African-American elevator worker... (someone can refresh my memory if I have this wrong, but think this was the story) which also came off as insensitive, or tone-deaf.

We tried to have them as a part of our Baltimore 2029 project, but didn't work out.   

 

Smith is the grandson of John Paterakis (H&S Bakery, Harbor East Development). 
He's the son of Frederick Smith who is the Co-Owner of Sinclair, and founded Gerstell Academy in Finksburg. 

To me... Alex is a young guy (35 or so)...  who wants to do good things for Baltimore, and I respect that. 
I'm not going to hold my issues against Sinclair against him. 

But you have to treat people equally, and he / Atlas Group has to utilize this mistake as an opportunity to listen and then adjust.
They apparently turned off the comments on their social links, which makes people feel unheard. That's another mistake. 
 

[mweb08]

I already have purposely avoided Atlas.

[mweb08]

I think what happened was pretty much the intended result of the dress code.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I think what happened was pretty much the intended result of the dress code.

That they'd keep out blacks?  Hard to look at it differently if you don't enforce the same standards for everyone.
I doubt it though, since I think the only color they see is green. 

It's not crazy to have a dress code imo, especially at 'higher end' restaurants. 
It's kind of a bummer if you are dressed up for a fancy dinner, and others aren't. 

But yeah, it's a bigger bummer if a restaurant posts we have certain dress standards and only enforces those standards if someone is black. 
 

[SportsGuy]

It’s very simple...if you want a dress code, you should have one and it should be the same across the board. And yes, dress codes are usually done to keep a certain element out of your establishment. That element isn’t race (or it shouldn’t be) but more image. If I owned a nice restaurant, I wouldn’t want people in there wearing hats, having pants way down below their ass, etc...there are plenty of restaurants you can go to where you can dress like that and receive a good meal and good service. But not every place welcomes that and there’s nothing wrong with that.

But the restaurant was wrong here. The white kid outside clearly was in the violation of the same thing they were saying about the black kid. It’s obvious that they had a problem with those particular guests or, they bent the rule for other family because maybe they are relatives or something...either way, whatever the reasoning is, the restaurant was wrong and they should own that.

The Bygone didn’t allow the Wu Tang Clan to come in a few years ago because of the dress code. They informed them who they were and the restaurant still told them to go change. Again, I don’t see anything wrong with it provided you do it equally and from what I have heard and seen there, they (meaning the Bygone)do.

[The Epic]

That they'd keep out blacks?  Hard to look at it differently if you don't enforce the same standards for everyone.
I doubt it though, since I think the only color they see is green. 

It's not crazy to have a dress code imo, especially at 'higher end' restaurants. 
It's kind of a bummer if you are dressed up for a fancy dinner, and others aren't. 

But yeah, it's a bigger bummer if a restaurant posts we have certain dress standards and only enforces those standards if someone is black. 
 

 

The intent, just like when people have "no hoodies" rules, is to find an easier way to keep out people that they think would make their clientele uncomfortable. That is also a financial incentive.

 

This is working directly as they wanted it to. Keep "certain" people out without having to specifically say it was racial. They just got caught being hypocritical.

[Mackus]

It’s very simple...if you want a dress code, you should have one and it should be the same across the board. And yes, dress codes are usually done to keep a certain element out of your establishment. That element isn’t race (or it shouldn’t be) but more image. If I owned a nice restaurant, I wouldn’t want people in there wearing hats, having pants way down below their ass, etc...there are plenty of restaurants you can go to where you can dress like that and receive a good meal and good service. But not every place welcomes that and there’s nothing wrong with that.

But the restaurant was wrong here. The white kid outside clearly was in the violation of the same thing they were saying about the black kid. It’s obvious that they had a problem with those particular guests or, they bent the rule for other family because maybe they are relatives or something...either way, whatever the reasoning is, the restaurant was wrong and they should own that.

The Bygone didn’t allow the Wu Tang Clan to come in a few years ago because of the dress code. They informed them who they were and the restaurant still told them to go change. Again, I don’t see anything wrong with it provided you do it equally and from what I have heard and seen there, they (meaning the Bygone)do.

 

A dress code is fine at fine dining restaurants and if they're written in a way that doesn't make it obvious that it's the people wearing the clothes that they are really trying to keep out.  Ouzo Bay's dress code is fine in itself, IMO, as you mention.

 

Choptank, on the other hand, is a half-patio seating raw bar that is connected to Broadway Market.  It's nice, but this is vastly different than Oregon Grille requiring jackets for dinner.  It's original dress code was very obvious in what the intent was.  I really don't think there is any room for reasonable disagreement on that.  They revised it so that it's not quite as obvious on first glance and if that's what they started with people wouldn't have been as angry.  But it's hard to put that toothpaste back in the tube once you've revealed yourself so clearly.  

[BSLChrisStoner]

The intent, just like when people have "no hoodies" rules, is to find an easier way to keep out people that they think would make their clientele uncomfortable. That is also a financial incentive.

 

This is working directly as they wanted it to. Keep "certain" people out without having to specifically say it was racial. They just got caught being hypocritical.

 

Should there never be a dress code in places? 

 

One memory which stands out for me, is the night I got engaged Laura and I went to dinner at Ruth's Chris, which has a location around the corner from us in Pikesville. I still remember being annoyed at the white kid at the next table who was wearing a baseball cap (against posted standards). 

I wasn't uncomfortable that he had a baseball cap on. I was annoyed.  

That memory stood out for me, and we never went back there. 

Having standards of dress doesn't seem racial to me.  
Having double standards of dress does. 

 

[The Epic]

But the restaurant was wrong here. The white kid outside clearly was in the violation of the same thing they were saying about the black kid. It’s obvious that they had a problem with those particular guests or, they bent the rule for other family because maybe they are relatives or something...either way, whatever the reasoning is, the restaurant was wrong and they should own that.

 

I'm really shocked that the reason wasn't "yeah, that's the owner's kid," or "he's related to one of the cooks." Like, something obviously oogy but not out-and-out racist.

 

But no, that's what it was.

[SportsGuy]

A dress code is fine at fine dining restaurants and if they're written in a way that doesn't make it obvious that it's the people wearing the clothes that they are really trying to keep out.  Ouzo Bay's dress code is fine in itself, IMO, as you mention.
 
Choptank, on the other hand, is a half-patio seating raw bar that is connected to Broadway Market.  It's nice, but this is vastly different than Oregon Grille requiring jackets for dinner.  It's original dress code was very obvious in what the intent was.  I really don't think there is any room for reasonable disagreement on that.  They revised it so that it's not quite as obvious on first glance and if that's what they started with people wouldn't have been as angry.  But it's hard to put that toothpaste back in the tube once you've revealed yourself so clearly.  

I know nothing about Choptank. Never heard of it until now.

I’m just talking in general.

Personally, dress codes have always irritated me in many settings. I don’t know how many times over the years I was in a bar and told to turn my hat around. Was always kind of dumb to me because I wasn’t going to “nice places."

But if I go to a nice place, I expect there to be a dress code.

Just as when I go to a nice place to eat, I don’t expect to see chicken tenders on the menu and I expect even better service, etc...

It’s part of the whole experience. It’s also why I try not to go to those places because I hate to dress up but I also know that I shouldn’t expect to be let into those places either.

[SportsGuy]

I'm really shocked that the reason wasn't "yeah, that's the owner's kid," or "he's related to one of the cooks." Like, something obviously oogy but not out-and-out racist.
 
But no, that's what it was.

Well, that kid may not have known the answer.

OTOH, he should have been smart enough to say, let me get you the manager to answer your question.

And if he was the manager, he looked awful there.

If I was that woman, I would have gotten way more pissed than she did. I hate being placated like they were doing. Stop apologizing and answer my question.

Maybe she got more pissed after the video...I hope she did. Not only was she right but she needs to show her son that he should be allowed to eat wherever.

On top of that, he’s a young kid FFS. I mean, I’m all for dress codes when appropriate but we are also talking about a young kid here. 99% of the people won’t bat an eye at that.

It’s pretty hard to not pin this on some kind of racial bias. It’s not definitely racial bias, as we don’t know the entire story but for what we know, it’s hard to say it’s anything else.

[BSLChrisStoner]

A dress code is fine at fine dining restaurants and if they're written in a way that doesn't make it obvious that it's the people wearing the clothes that they are really trying to keep out.  Ouzo Bay's dress code is fine in itself, IMO, as you mention.

 

Choptank, on the other hand, is a half-patio seating raw bar that is connected to Broadway Market.  It's nice, but this is vastly different than Oregon Grille requiring jackets for dinner.  It's original dress code was very obvious in what the intent was.  I really don't think there is any room for reasonable disagreement on that.  They revised it so that it's not quite as obvious on first glance and if that's what they started with people wouldn't have been as angry.  But it's hard to put that toothpaste back in the tube once you've revealed yourself so clearly.  

Re: Choptank... I think part of the reason the dress code caught people's attention, was because people in Fells weren't used to one existing.  But to me, it feels like they are directly appealing to those staying at The Pendry.  

They wanted that place to be 'relaxed upscale.'  Or 'for $, without a suit.' 

 

 

But simply could have avoided any issue by treating people equally by maintaining their standards equally.