90 replies to this topic

[mdrunning]

Skenes is also the franchise - the most exciting, most dominant player the Pirates have drafted and developed since Barry Bonds. The backlash would be tremendous, no matter the return. No franchise, even one as stingy as the Pirates, wants that.

He is the most unavailable player in baseball who isn't named Shohei.

Yeah, even for tight-fisted Pittsburgh, it's not a good look to trade a player of that caliber who is yet to be arbitration-eligible.

[Slidemaster]

They should absolutely trade him.

The O's might not have enough to get him (with what they'd be willing to give up), but Pittsburgh should be trading him.

This year?!

With 4 years of control left?

Come on now.

[fishteacher]

This year?!

With 4 years of control left?

Come on now.

Agreed.  They will ride the Skenes' train until it runs off the tracks or his contract ends...no way he will resign in Pittsburgh NOR will they trade him...When will Pittsburgh be able to put an actual winning product on the field if they continue to trade away all their actual talent like they have the past 2+ decades?  Their owner is one of the worst in the game...what a waste of a beautiful ballpark and historic franchise.

[BSLChrisStoner]

This year?!

With 4 years of control left?

Come on now.

There's no real point imo of keeping him. 

You can say you have him... but you aren't contending in '26, and '27... so you are hoping it comes together in '28 when he has 2 years left of control..

Better off cashing in now, and getting back a huge return. 

JMO. 

[Slidemaster]

There's no real point imo of keeping him.

You can say you have him... but you aren't contending in '26, and '27... so you are hoping it comes together in '28 when he has 2 years left of control..

Better off cashing in now, and getting back a huge return.

JMO.

Respectfully, this might be the worst take I've ever seen you voice.

So you think it's reasonable for the ownership and GM to punt the next 4 years?

If you punt with 4 years of Skenes left, you might as well just contract the franchise. I'm sure there were fans of other teams suggesting we do the same over the last 2 decades, but they put it together. Hell, why even bother promoting elite prospects if you want to trade them that early? Just trade them for younger elite prospects, so you can trade them later too.

At some point you have to decide you're going to try. I think the Pirates are there, even if their version of "trying" looks different than most. They're not dealing Skenes, nor should they.

[mdrunning]

Washington traded Juan Soto with 2+ years of control remaining and got quite a haul. Granted, that deal hasn't worked the way Washington had hoped, and Mackenzie Gore has already been traded for prospects. Still, they got three top 100 prospects and Gore, who was San Diego's No. 4 prospect at the time. I imagine someone like Skenes could bring in even more once he reaches Year 4 of his career.

 

It could also serve as a cautionary tale of the perils of trading a proven commodity for the unknown, no matter how promising it may look. If Pittsburgh trades Skenes now, they not only need to get an emir's ransom, but they'd better damn sight be right. 

 

Hell, this time next year (if there is a 2027 season) we might be discussing the pros and cons of trading Gunnar while he still has two years of team control remaining.

[BSLChrisStoner]

So you think it's reasonable for the ownership and GM to punt the next 4 years?

If you punt with 4 years of Skenes left, you might as well just contract the franchise. I'm sure there were fans of other teams suggesting we do the same over the last 2 decades. Hell, why even bother promoting elite prospects? Just trade them for younger elite prospects, so you can trade them later too?

At some point you've decided you're going to try. I think the Pirates are there, even if their version of "trying" looks different than most. They're not dealing Skenes, nor should they.

Are you not punting '26 and '27 already?  You aren't contending. 

Are you going to definitively contend in '28?  If you want to point to that, and go all in on '28 with him... okay.... if you win, it's great.

If you don't (which is more likely), you are staring at 1 remaining year of control, where you can still trade him and get a strong return, but it won't be the same as now. 

If you cash in now, you can probably get 3 young everyday players + more, with even more control than Skenes has by himself. 

He's great obviously, but he's not enough by himself, nobody is. 

[makoman]

Respectfully, this might be the worst take I've ever seen you voice.

So you think it's reasonable for the ownership and GM to punt the next 4 years?

If you punt with 4 years of Skenes left, you might as well just contract the franchise. I'm sure there were fans of other teams suggesting we do the same over the last 2 decades, but they put it together. Hell, why even bother promoting elite prospects if you want to trqde them that early? Just trade them for younger elite prospects, so you can trade them later too.

At some point you have to decide you're going to try. I think the Pirates are there, even if their version of "trying" looks different than most. They're not dealing Skenes, nor should they.

To be fair, I think this might be about when Chris said he wanted to trade Gunnar. He is consistent in trading early rather than later and wanting to be cold blooded about it like the Rays. He can correct me if I'm wrong (maybe I'm a year early with Gunnar, don't remember).

 

I agree with you that soft factors are important, like Skenes has quickly become the face of the franchise and you will risk extremely alienating the fan base by dumping him for prospects after having him less than 2 years.

[Slidemaster]

Are you not punting '26 and '27 already? You aren't contending.

Are you going to definitively contend in '28? If you want to point to that, and go all in on '28 with him... okay.... if you win, it's great.

If you don't (which is more likely), you are staring at 1 remaining year of control, where you can still trade him and get a strong return, but it won't be the same as now.

If you cash in now, you can probably get 3 young everyday players + more, with even more control than Skenes has by himself.

He's great obviously, but he's not enough by himself, nobody is.

Nobody thought the Orioles were contending in 2011. Not one person.

Nobody outside of Baltimore expected the Orioles to contend in 2022 or win 100+ games in 2023.

No bad team is bad forever, and nobody can predict when they are going to make the leap. There's not a chance in hell that anybody in the Pirates front office is going to punt the next 4 years because they are so defeatist and limp-dicked that they aren't even interested in trying when they have the best pitcher in any organization leading their rotation. And they shouldn't, either.

[Slidemaster]

To be fair, I think this might be about when Chris said he wanted to trade Gunnar. He is consistent in trading early rather than later and wanting to be cold blooded about it like the Rays. He can correct me if I'm wrong (maybe I'm a year early with Gunnar, don't remember).

I agree with you that soft factors are important, like Skenes has quickly become the face of the franchise and you will risk extremely alienating the fan base by dumping him for prospects after having him less than 2 years.

The Rays routinely trade guys with two years of control, and occasionally three. I have never seen them trade and MVP / Cy Young caliber player with four entire years of control left. That is lunacy - and is unprecedented in the history of the sport. Has it ever happened since the era of George Herman?

[BSLChrisStoner]

Nobody thought the Orioles were contending in 2011. Not one person.

Nobody outside of Baltimore expected the Orioles to contend in 2022 or win a hundred games in 2023.

No bad team is bad forever, and nobody can predict when they are going to make the leap. There's not a chance in hell that anybody in the Pirates front office is going to punt the next 4 years because they are so defeatist and limp-dicked that they aren't even interested in trying when they have the best pitcher in any organization leading their rotation. And they shouldn't, either.

They've got a strong system. Maybe it all comes together for them in '28. 
Maybe he leads them a division title and more that year.
That would be great for them (and the game overall), to have a long-suffering fanbase see a winner. 

I think they'd be better off augmenting their already strong system with additional depth and control vs. hoping it all comes together with Skenes in '28. 
 

[Slidemaster]

They've got a strong system. Maybe it all comes together for them in '28.
Maybe he leads them a division title and more that year.
That would be great for them (and the game overall), to have a long-suffering fanbase see a winner.

I think they'd be better off augmenting their already strong system with additional depth and control vs. hoping it all comes together with Skenes in '28.

You trade Skenes, and your window goes from 27 or 28, to more like 31 or 32, and what's left of your fanbase is outside your front office with pitchforks and torches, before gleefully abandoning their support of a franchise run that poorly.

[BSLChrisStoner]

You trade Skenes, and your window goes from 27 or 28, to more like 31 or 32, and what's left of your fanbase is outside your front office with pitchforks and torches, before gleefully abandoning their support of a franchise run that poorly.

 

With Skenes, their best hope is that it all comes together in '28.

If you trade him for a haul now and combine that with the remaining core you are trying to build; you might have a longer window, and sustained contention. 

 

That makes more sense for a franchise like Pittsburgh which is always going to have budget constraints. 

I agree that they'll keep him, and hope to win in '28.  

They'll sell a lot of Skenes jerseys, and draw some people on days he starts. 

 

And who knows, maybe Ryan O'Hearn and Brandon Lowe and their coming youth allows them to surprise here in '26 and '27. 

I don't think that's a great bet. 

I will acknowledge it's 'possible.'

[Slidemaster]

With Skenes, their best hope is that it all comes together in '28.

If you trade him for a haul now and combine that with the remaining core you are trying to build; you might have a longer window, and sustained contention.

That makes more sense for a franchise like Pittsburgh which is always going to have budget constraints.

I agree that they'll keep him, and hope to win in '28.

They'll sell a lot of Skenes jerseys, and draw some people on days he starts.

And who knows, maybe Ryan O'Hearn and Brandon Lowe and their coming youth allows them to surprise here in '26 and '27.

I don't think that's a great bet.

I will acknowledge it's 'possible.'

So much changes year to year that projecting when a team's window will open is foolhardy past the current one or the one immediately after. There is no reason to think the Pirates can't be respectable this year, and make a run in 27. I think a comparison between their 2026 and the Orioles in 2022 is reasonable.

Either way, you don't trade Skenes with 4 years of control. It would be an unprecedented, unmitigated disaster on every level, even if you got the haul of the century back.

[makoman]

So much changes year to year that projecting when a team's window will open is foolhardy past the current one or the one immediately after. There is no reason to think the Pirates can't be respectable this year, and make a run in 27. I think a comparison between their 2026 and the Orioles in 2022 is reasonable.

Either way, you don't trade Skenes with 4 years of control. It would be an unprecedented, unmitigated disaster on every level, even if you got the haul of the century back.

I agree. What’s the point of following a team if you’re going to give up one of the best players in the league so early. While I ultimately root for the front of the laundry, the names on the back aren’t nothing and having the same guys to root for for a while is meaningful.

Also we won fewer games than the 2024 Pirates last year, barely above the 2025 Pirates. We are supposed to contend yet they are supposed to be hopeless?

[Slidemaster]

I agree. What’s the point of following a team if you’re going to give up one of the best players in the league so early. While I ultimately root for the front of the laundry, the names on the back aren’t nothing and having the same guys to root for for a while is meaningful.

Also we won fewer games than the 2024 Pirates last year, barely above the 2025 Pirates. We are supposed to contend yet they are supposed to be hopeless?

Exactly. At this time of year ago the Orioles were supposed to be contending for a playoff team with aspirations for a run. Now we are on the bottom half of power rankings in publications across the sport, despite having a very good offseason. There's just no way you can predict the future, and it would be near-criminal mismanagement to trade an asset like a Cy Young Award winner with four years of control left because you're assuming contention Within his contract is hopeless.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I agree. What’s the point of following a team if you’re going to give up one of the best players in the league so early. While I ultimately root for the front of the laundry, the names on the back aren’t nothing and having the same guys to root for for a while is meaningful.

Also we won fewer games than the 2024 Pirates last year, barely above the 2025 Pirates. We are supposed to contend yet they are supposed to be hopeless?

We're more talented than the Pirates, even when accounting for the difference in divisions. 

 

But the names mean nothing to me, so that's a difference. 

 

If I didn't think the O's could contend until '28, I'd want them to be trading Gunnar now. 
I'll enjoy having him a part of the roster this year while trying to contend, but I don't think it's a great long-term decision. 

[Slidemaster]

We're more talented than the Pirates, even when accounting for the difference in divisions.

But the names mean nothing to me, so that's a difference.

If I didn't think the O's could contend until '28, I'd want them to be trading Gunnar now.
I'll enjoy having him a part of the roster this year while trying to contend, but I don't think it's a great long-term decision.

You can't ever contend while simultaneously trading away your best players every year because one day they may leave your organization. All that allows you to do is be a farm system for the rest of the league. They just acquired Baz, who has as much team control as Gunnar. Should they be trading he and Bradish also?

[BSLChrisStoner]

Exactly. At this time of year ago the Orioles were supposed to be contending for a playoff team with aspirations for a run. Now we are on the bottom half of power rankings in publications across the sport, despite having a very good offseason. There's just no way you can predict the future, and it would be near-criminal mismanagement to trade an asset like a Cy Young Award winner with four years of control left because you're assuming contention Within his contract is hopeless.

I'd argue that criminal mismanagement is maintaining an asset if it doesn't make a difference 

The Pirates added a couple of decent pieces this off-season.
They have a strong system. 

Maybe it works out for them and all comes together in '28. 

Maybe they out pace expectations here in '26 and '27, and that would be a real win for them. 

It's not the most likely outcome. 

[BSLChrisStoner]

You can't ever contend while simultaneously trading away your best players every year because one day they may leave your organization. All that allows you to do is be a farm system for the rest of the league. They just acquired Baz, who has as much team control as Gunnar. Should they be trading he and Bradish also?

The O's are expected to contend this year... not a lock given the division... but generally expected to be in playoff contention. 

They've got enough talent up and down their roster even with the rotation questions... that it's believable that they could get to the playoffs (of course it's a crapshoot once there). 

No harm in trying to maximize what's here. 

If anything the issue is that they aren't maximizing what's here enough.

 

 

But if they weren't in a position to likely contend... obviously it would be a different conversation with what they should be doing with existing assets... and I don't believe it's correct that contention can't be sustained even if the best players year to year are moved in and out.