143 replies to this topic

[Mike B]

If we can't get a TOR guy then I am down to two options.

 

1. Go with what we have.

2. Sign Verlander.

 

Not interested in a trade for a 4/5 guy. Keep those trade pieces and see where we are at come July. Then maybe you can put together a package to get you a starter that can put you over the top.

I tend to agree, although I might try Giolitto instead of Verlander.

[Pedro Cerrano]

I guess Giolito

[TwentyThirtyFive]

We have reached my cut off date with Valdez anyway. Its Feb 1. He shouldve accepted by now. I pretty much only want a FA on a 1 year deal right now.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

And you hold the line on not making a big overpay for a pitcher. A position player is more palatable. They play every day. The long term injury risk is lower. If big SPs keep refusing to pay here unless we overpay then they can stick it. Its why developing pitching is very crucial. Its why trading prospect capital for pitching is important. Grow the arms and buy some bats has always been the right mantra. Generally speaking.

[Mackus]

Hard to grow arms when you never invest draft or international capital in them. Gotta pick a lane.

You either need to pay big for them in trade or FA, invest resources into developing amateur talent, perform magic with cheaper acquisitions or just have inferior pitching. We don't do enough of #1 or #2 so Elias tries at #3 a lot and when hat inevitably goes sour we end up with #4.

It's bad planning. I think they'll stick around in the Valdez market rather than pull offers like many of us would like to see at this point or soon. So maybe they still land him. But I think they've erred on the pitching side, again, this off-season. Baz was a nice pickup and Eflin palatable so it isn't as big of a disaster as last year. But still disappointing.

[jamesdean]

The Orioles have done a poor job of developing the pitchers they have drafted, while obviously not many. Or they overestimated the talent level of the Povich and McDermott's of the world. Just not good enough which is why I take the opposite stance and say, grow the every day players and buy or trade for the arms. Its certainly a risky approach with injuries always lurking in the shadows but if you want to seriously compete for championships, you have to walk the walk at some point.

[BaltBird 24]

I'll still be excited if/when they add another reliable SP, but the longer it drags out the less enthusiastic I'll be. Still roughly 2 weeks until ST begins, so plenty of time to be in regular season shape before it all begins.

[BaltBird 24]

The Orioles have done a poor job of developing the pitchers they have drafted, while obviously not many. Or they overestimated the talent level of the Povich and McDermott's of the world. Just not good enough which is why I take the opposite stance and say, grow the every day players and buy or trade for the arms. Its certainly a risky approach with injuries always lurking in the shadows but if you want to seriously compete for championships, you have to walk the walk at some point.

I'd say the Orioles didn't really take pitching development serious until around 22/23 for whatever reason. They've seemed to ramp it up a bit since and you're beginning to see some interesting arms in AA/AAA.

[Mackus]

I'll still be excited if/when they add another reliable SP, but the longer it drags out the less enthusiastic I'll be. Still roughly 2 weeks until ST begins, so plenty of time to be in regular season shape before it all begins.

If they wait, they need to leverage Eflin and/or Wells as the opening day rotation guys and let the signee ramp up slowly. That'll mean not being ready on opening day, but that's better than being awful or injured which is my concern and we've seen kate witness struggle with either or both recently. That's an added cost of waiting this long. Still have a week or maybe even two weeks where you can avoid that, but it's getting tight.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

And you hold the line on not making a big overpay for a pitcher. A position player is more palatable. They play every day. The long term injury risk is lower. If big SPs keep refusing to pay here unless we overpay then they can stick it. Its why developing pitching is very crucial. Its why trading prospect capital for pitching is important. Grow the arms and buy some bats has always been the right mantra. Generally speaking.

Thats been the mantra for how long now and how has that worked?

[jamesdean]

I'd say the Orioles didn't really take pitching development serious until around 22/23 for whatever reason. They've seemed to ramp it up a bit since and you're beginning to see some interesting arms in AA/AAA.

I don't know anything about these arms you're talking about, but it remains to be seen whether they'll develop them properly or not.  Hopefully, they will. 

[mdrunning]

MacPhail's philosophy was always "buy the bats, grow the arms," but unfortunately, other than Zach Britton, those arms either never developed as expected or, as was the case with Jake Arrieta, went on to star for someone else.

[Mackus]

Thats been the mantra for how long now and how has that worked?

That's not Elias's mantra and never has been.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

That's not Elias's mantra and never has been.

Ok but then just what is his approach to getting quality SP?

 

1. He doesn't rate them in the draft.

2. He doesn't sign FAs.

3. Other than the trade for Burnes he doesn't go after top tier SP via trade.

 

So apparently he thinks just hit a shit pile of home runs and out score the other team......lol

[Mackus]

Ok but then just what is his approach to getting quality SP?

1. He doesn't rate them in the draft.
2. He doesn't sign FAs.
3. Other than the trade for Burnes he doesn't go after top tier SP via trade.

So apparently he thinks just hit a shit pile of home runs and out score the other team......lol

It's been mostly fourth tier FAs, cheap trade acquisitions and occasional big trade acquisitions.

I'd like to see a very different approach. I get the apprehension at the top of the FA market but if you aren't doing anything else you gotta give a little there.

[Mike B]

The Orioles have done a poor job of developing the pitchers they have drafted, while obviously not many. Or they overestimated the talent level of the Povich and McDermott's of the world. Just not good enough which is why I take the opposite stance and say, grow the every day players and buy or trade for the arms. Its certainly a risky approach with injuries always lurking in the shadows but if you want to seriously compete for championships, you have to walk the walk at some point.

I agree with Mackus.  I think there is a flaw in the Elias plan in regard to pitching. I don't think it is a development plan but when you're not taking pitchers to the 4th round and you're not pursuing pitchers in the international market, the people you are bringing in through those channels are likely not types that develop into stars. 

[Mackus]

I don't have a problem with not using the top draft capital on pitching and nobody uses significant international bonuses on pitching, so that part of it isn't necessarily flawed thinking. You just have to be willing to spend in free agency to supplement if that plan leaves you with some holes. Which here it has, but the supplementing hasn't happened.

[bmore_ken]

I don't have a problem with not using the top draft capital on pitching and nobody uses significant international bonuses on pitching, so that part of it isn't necessarily flawed thinking. You just have to be willing to spend in free agency to supplement if that plan leaves you with some holes. Which here it has, but the supplementing hasn't happened.

Show of hands, who's surprised by this? Definitely not me. 

[You Play to Win the Game]

All that talk and the best they do is Baz. Shouldn’t be surprised. This better work.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

All that talk and the best they do is Baz. Shouldn’t be surprised. This better work.

IMO its a failed off season once again. Now that doesn't mean we can't win with what we have. And come October if we are still in it that won't mean it was the correct approach SP wise. 

 

Go back and read what most on here thought we needed to do this offseason pitching wise. Almost across the board it was to add two SP with a TOR and a MOR being the most predominant opinion.  What has Elias done so far?

 

Two starters BOTH who have significant questions coming into the season. 

 

Baz - Is he really a lot better than his previous performance? At best you could think he's a MOR guy.

Eflin - Is he even going to hold up coming off back surgery? At best you could think he's a BOR guy.

 

To me its the same as last off season. And yes Mackus, this is better than Morton and Sugano but the general gist is exactly the same. He's brought in two guys with big questions and neither has evershown front end numbers.

 

Now if Bradish and Rogers had shown a good history of being healthy and FOR numbers then you could see a different approach. But they haven't and Elias appears once again to be banking on things working out in the best case scenario. No margin for error. SMDH