5725 replies to this topic

[BSLMikeLowe]

And zero playoff wins. And now no Adley who played a big role in that. To get there we had to have historically bad seasons and a lot of high draft picks. Is that where we want to go?

The biggest problem is we never complimented that talent with proven major league talent. If Elias continues to punt on the season and be reluctant to make big moves we're gonna be stuck in mediocrity. Right now our struggle is to be a .500 team again.

 

Much like the 2022 team, the 2023 team failed to adhere to The Schedule. The players were ready to win big, but Elias wasn't. To wit, his "big" acquisitions in the offseason ahead of that were Adam Frazier and Kyle Gibson. (the most impactful ended up being a AAA flyer named Ryan O'Hearn) His deadline acquisitions were Jack Flaherty and Shintaro Fujinami. Do those seem like the actions of a GM with World Series aspirations?

[glenn__davis]

Much like the 2022 team, the 2023 team failed to adhere to The Schedule. The players were ready to win big, but Elias wasn't. To wit, his "big" acquisitions in the offseason ahead of that were Adam Frazier and Kyle Gibson. (the most impactful ended up being a AAA flyer named Ryan O'Hearn) His deadline acquisitions were Jack Flaherty and Shintaro Fujinami. Do those seem like the actions of a GM with World Series aspirations?

 

This is where a lot of you all lose me.

 

The 2023 team won 101 games.  They were ready to win big?  They did win big.  That was a very good team that both Elias and the players deserve credit for.  Just as the current squad is a very medicore team that both Elias and the players deserve criticism for.

[85Knight]

To be fair, what are you gonna do? The MLB team is what it is, I’d rather have a farm system that the industry thinks is good than otherwise.

You have to recognize your window and make the proper moves to compliment what talent you do have. Elias fails miserably in that area. That's an industry wide criticism of him. He's too hyper focused on building the minor leagues.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

No one is punting anything. Underachieving is not punting. We had to build up from virtually nothing in 2019. People need to get that through their head. Yes ownership and FO coulda signed some dudes to try and win more games from 2019-2021. There was never a chance of contending and you all know it. What will happen from 2027 on will not be a rebuild. Whether Elias is GM or not they will be attempting to win.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

This is where a lot of you all lose me.

The 2023 team won 101 games. They were ready to win big? They did win big. That was a very good team that both Elias and the players deserve credit for. Just as the current squad is a very medicore team that both Elias and the players deserve criticism for.

EDS

[BSLMikeLowe]

This is where a lot of you all lose me.

 

The 2023 team won 101 games.  They were ready to win big?  They did win big.  That was a very good team that both Elias and the players deserve credit for.  Just as the current squad is a very medicore team that both Elias and the players deserve criticism for.

 

Maybe they could have actually won once they got to the playoffs had they upgraded 2B from Frazier (.696 OPS and defense not as good as advertised) and Flaherty, who never even made the postseason roster. But he just did his usual half-measures.

 

Championship windows are short. The idea that you can contend for 5-10 straight years is a fallacy, unless you're the Dodgers and can buy your way out when players inevitably regress or have injuries. Being complacent and sitting on prospects versus making upgrades when you have a team playing that well is selling yourself short.

[glenn__davis]

Maybe they could have actually won once they got to the playoffs had they upgraded 2B from Frazier (.696 OPS and defense not as good as advertised) and Flaherty, who never even made the postseason roster. But he just did his usual half-measures.

 

Championship windows are short. The idea that you can contend for 5-10 straight years is a fallacy, unless you're the Dodgers and can buy your way out when players inevitably regress or have injuries. Being complacent and sitting on prospects versus making upgrades when you have a team playing that well is selling yourself short.

 

OK.  I understand that opinion, but I 100% disagree with it.

 

"Championship window" is a phrase that should never be uttered in baseball.  I can understand it a bit in other leagues, where you can be so overly-reliant a QB in football or a dominant player or two in basketball.  There is no reason that a well-run baseball team should not be contending more years than not.

[85Knight]

This is where a lot of you all lose me.

The 2023 team won 101 games. They were ready to win big? They did win big. That was a very good team that both Elias and the players deserve credit for. Just as the current squad is a very medicore team that both Elias and the players deserve criticism for.

What did he do to build on the '23 and '24 teams? He kept falling short in the off season and trade deadlines. That is my only problem with Elias. He punted again this season and was left trying to explain things to the team and the fans. He's not building on the roster like he should with proven major league talent.

[BSLMikeLowe]

OK.  I understand that opinion, but I 100% disagree with it.

 

"Championship window" is a phrase that should never be uttered in baseball.  I can understand it a bit in other leagues, where you can be so overly-reliant a QB in football or a dominant player or two in basketball.  There is no reason that a well-run baseball team should not be contending more years than not.

 

I agree, but for a different reason. Even well run organizations will have seasons where they do not realistically contend. That's how baseball is. Which is why I believe when you do you should push more chips in.

 

I suppose it's just a philosophy where people differ. Some are more aggressive by nature when it comes to pursuing opportunities when they present themselves. Others are more conservative and want to hold assets for the future.

[BSLMikeLowe]

What did he do to build on the '23 and '24 teams? He kept falling short in the off season and trade deadlines. That is my only problem with Elias. He punted again this season again was left trying to explain things to the team and the fans. He's not building on the roster like he should with proven major league talent.

 

The Burnes trade. That was it. I wish he did something similar going into '23, and '25, and this season. Those are the moves you make when you want to contend.

[glenn__davis]

What did he do to build on the '23 and '24 teams? He kept falling short in the off season and trade deadlines. That is my only problem with Elias. He punted again this season again was left trying to explain things to the team and the fans. He's not building on the roster like he should with proven major league talent.

 

He added Corbin Burnes during the '24 offseason and Zach Eflin during the '24 trade deadlines.  2 trades that both ended up being extremely successful.  Both pitched brilliantly in the playoffs.  And still didn't win a game.

 

The players came up short.  Adley worked the count to a meatball and ground out.  Doofus Cowser struck out on a pitch that hit him.  I've said before, I'd love to see the parallel universe where he doesn't swing at that pitch.  I think we likely win that game and then that series, and who knows from there.

[Mackus]

Was thinking about Gunnar and comps besides the other stars having bad years this year, and one popped to mind:

Cody Bellinger

Not sure if his is a cautionary tale or an optimistic hope. But MVP winner at 23 to negative WAR at 25 and back to MVP vote getter in his late 20s.

[Nigel Tufnel]

What did he do to build on the '23 and '24 teams? He kept falling short in the off season and trade deadlines. That is my only problem with Elias. He punted again this season again was left trying to explain things to the team and the fans. He's not building on the roster like he should with proven major league talent.

 

The 2023 team won 101 games, and then in the playoffs they played an incredibly hot Rangers team and Mullins, Adley, and Mountcastle went a combined 3 for 35 in the series.  Hard to blame the front office for that.

[glenn__davis]

I agree, but for a different reason. Even well run organizations will have seasons where they do not realistically contend. That's how baseball is. Which is why I believe when you do you should push more chips in.

 

I suppose it's just a philosophy where people differ. Some are more aggressive by nature when it comes to pursuing opportunities when they present themselves. Others are more conservative and want to hold assets for the future.

 

I've always thought he was too reluctant to move prospects for sure.  I was criticizing him for that before criticizing him was cool.

 

I think the main disconnect is just how do you view the playoffs.  If you view playoff success as something that is almost completely out of the GMs control - as I do - then you're going to have a different opinion on what moves should / should not be made.

[Mackus]

The 2023 team won 101 games, and then in the playoffs they played an incredibly hot Rangers team and Mullins, Adley, and Mountcastle went a combined 3 for 35 in the series. Hard to blame the front office for that.

Maybe they still run into the Texas buzzsaw, but there were bigger moves needed at the deadline than Flaherty and Fujinama. That season was a wild success but Elias didn't augment it after '22 or midseason. He did better in and during 2024 but still incomplete in both the off-season and trade deadline. Progress, personally, but more was needed.

I don't think he's a total failure, but he's not been able to do enough to augment what we have internally. And I think he's the limiting factor there.

We've got a bigger task facing us this off-season than any recent one. I'm very doubtful that Elias is capable of making all the moves we need to make.

[85Knight]

I agree, but for a different reason. Even well run organizations will have seasons where they do not realistically contend. Which is why I believe when you do you should push more chips in.

I suppose it's just a philosophy where people differ. Some are more aggressive by nature when it comes to pursuing opportunities when they present themselves. Others are more conservative and want to hold assets for the future.

That's it in a nutshell. If we had made moves in the past maybe Adley would still be here. I'm glad we got pitching for him but now we need an entirely new outfield before we can be taken seriously. How are we gonna get there and how long is that gonna take?

[You Play to Win the Game]

Nickle likes to say the team had nothing when Elias took over. And then point to the 101 team. That 101 team which featured Mullins, Mountcastle, Hays, Santander, GrayRod and Kremer - all of whom were acquired during the Duquette era. 

 

EDS - Elias Devotion Syndrome.

[weird-O]

Different than what. A 100 win team followed by 90 the next. Sign me up for that

Absolutely. it just ended so quickly, we didn't get a chance to really live it. With the right moves, we can have more seasons like that. I have faith that those types of years can happen in '27. But it will take the continued move in a different direction, that he's been hesitantly going in.    

[BSLMikeLowe]

I've always thought he was too reluctant to move prospects for sure.  I was criticizing him for that before criticizing him was cool.

 

I think the main disconnect is just how do you view the playoffs.  If you view playoff success as something that is almost completely out of the GMs control - as I do - then you're going to have a different opinion on what moves should / should not be made.

 

I agree having the best team on paper doesn't assure playoff success. But improving your weakest spots, or even upgrading ones that are just average, should be a priority and should improve your chances.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Was thinking about Gunnar and comps besides the other stars having bad years this year, and one popped to mind:

Cody Bellinger

Not sure if his is a cautionary tale or an optimistic hope. But MVP winner at 23 to negative WAR at 25 and back to MVP vote getter in his late 20s.

Hes gonna be fine offensively.