769 replies to this topic

[BaltBird 24]

Only the Orioles knew the extent of Bradish injury. Obviously, they were confident PRP therapy could heal his ligament. They gambled and lost that one.

Even the most optimistic of us (not I) figured that was a risk, at best.

Montgomery has been a disaster. Who knows how his season would've progressed if not for the abnormal offseason. Snell was never in our budget.

[85Knight]

I'm down on the moves, but no moves help the other 20-23 guys here play better. Without that happening they could've add Skubal and Robert and Scott and nothing much really changes, they limp to a Wild Card and then either there got or don't.

My annoyances with the deadline moves (really just Rogers) are contingent on the core playing more like April thru June and less like July. If that doesn't happen, then the deadline is irrelevant. I'm optimistic, but the longer they struggle the less optimistic I get. If they do play better, then the ceiling is capped by Elias's decisions. If they don't, then the deadline isn't the limiting factor.

After this series there is a big "get right" opportunity for about two weeks and then the stretch run really begins. Heads out of asses time.

What's really concerning about this stretch of subpar play is that there are new problems that have cropped up. Hitting with RISP and defense were never a problem at any point last season. Even if your pitching is a little shakey you can still win if you're sound in those other two areas. If we don't find a way to play more like we did last year I think we're in big trouble and I agree with you that it starts with players that have already been here.

[RichardZ]

What's really concerning about this stretch of subpar play is that there are new problems that have cropped up. Hitting with RISP and defense were never a problem at any point last season. Even if you're pitching is a little shakey you can still win if you're sound in those other two areas. If we don't find a way to play like we did last year I think we're in big trouble and I agree with you that it starts with players that have already been here.

If we don’t play well we’re in trouble? Thank you.

[85Knight]

If we don’t play well we’re in trouble? Thank you.

What I said was much deeper than that but it's OK if you don't get it.

[BaltBird 24]

I think they're all pressing. They all know they're slumping.

A good 4 or 5 game win streak could cure all.

[Mackus]

Hyde just needs to give them the Lollygaggers speech and everything will snap back in place. Ownership isn't the villain anymore so Major League tactics won't work.

[BaltBird 24]

No John Angelos cardboard cutout this year? Bummer.

[dude]

I'm down on the moves, but no moves help the other 20-23 guys here play better. 

 

So, I understand you aren't the intangibles guy and maybe I'm too much the intangibles guy, but it's up to Elias to understand what the impacts of the roster composition is on the performance of the roster.  Nobody has static performance across all conditions and it's the challenge of every team to figure that out. 

 

Wile E wants to blame it all on Hyde, but at some point, Hyde can't keep telling these guys it's sunny out when they are sitting in their own rain.  You can do it to a point, but at some point it's like isometrics and it's just hard to stay where you need to be.

 

They (Elias) chose to change the culture/leadership of the team going forward.  You impact that with contracts or (imo, this case) a lack of contracts.  I'm not saying the next group can't emerge, maybe it will, but you take the guys that had the yoke inside the clubhouse for the manager and you start changing it, well, they're going to have to figure it out.

 

The best thing about Buck was the combination of him and AJ.  When you have that you (may) get '12-'16 and when you undermine that you (may) get '17-'18.  None of this is absolutes.  It's the squishy part and you aren't going to get a WAR formula for it.  Sometimes 3+4=7, sometimes it feels like 3+4=10 and sometimes it feels like 3+4=4 (like today).

 

Back in June when the pitching was falling apart, sometimes you have to make a move.  Sometimes you want to lean into your guys. Those decisions are on Elias and whatever they did doesn't appear to have worked. For all of the victory laps that have been taken on the Lopez and Mancini trades, we've essentially turned them into irrelevance at this point.

 

Bottom line for me is I think Elias is a poor manager (impact, consequence) of the ML roster.  I think his strengths and passion reside in a completely different part of the Organizational effort and he does lots of things credibly well, we just haven't seen much with respect to the top team (which is the only one that matters).  I think he'd rather scout prospects than trade prospects. 

 

One more thing, and I know it's already too long and even if Pedro agrees, it's still TLDR for him, but THIS was the period of time to suggest everything in the last 5+ seasons was on John Angelos.  The reason we couldn't do X, Y, Z is because of past ownership and now that we have THIS ownership change, we have some freedom of maneuver and look what we can do.  One of the main reasons I'd have wanted to do something significant back in June is you get announce the change with action.  Saying "urgent" then waiting 8 weeks to underperform (and overpay) seems like you just don't have a good feel for what you need to do, especially given the opportunity to establish your new baseline.

 

Bringing it back to your initial comment, I think stuff like this does have an impact on how the other 20-23 guys perform. It's the most important part of every job like this (not just Baseball).

 

too many words, my bad

[BSLSteveBirrer]

If we don’t play well we’re in trouble? Thank you.

Thanks for adding so much to the thread.

[RichardZ]

Thanks for adding so much to the thread.

No need to thank me. You’re welcome.

[RichardZ]

Dude, they didn’t choose to change the culture. They chose to change the players because it wasn’t going to work. That may have changed the clubhouse chemistry and clubhouse chemistry might play a role but it’s doubtful it plays as much of a role as you want to believe. When the pitchers pitch better the team will do better. The pitching falling apart has ZERO to do with team chemistry or the clubhouse.

[Slidemaster]

I know people are taking a victory lap 3 days after the deadline after playing the best team in the AL, but I firmly believe acquiring Skubal for Mayo Basallo and Kjerstad was a bad idea in general. It's just a trade you don't make for a guy with Skubal's history. His price will never be higher and those prospects will likely never be this low again. Skubal has never even pitched a full season before this year. Just no.

[mweb08]

I know people are taking a victory lap 3 days after the deadline after playing the best team in the AL, but I firmly believe acquiring Skubal for Mayo Basallo and Kjerstad was a bad idea in general. It's just a trade you don't make for a guy with Skubal's history. His price will never be higher and those prospects will likely never be this low again. Skubal has never even pitched a full season before this year. Just no.

Who was advocating that trade?

[BSLChrisStoner]

Who was advocating that trade?

Nobody, it's just the cost he believes it would have taken.

[Slidemaster]

Nobody, it's just the cost he believes it would have taken.

And I don't think it's far off either. Look what Houston had to trade for Kikuchi. Look how expensive all of the starters around the league were. None of the best ones got traded because the prices were too damn high.

I absolutely believe that that is what it would have taken, and reports were that Detroit was looking for a trade that would alter the trajectory of the franchise.

[Slidemaster]

There was a fair amount of sentiment around these parts that the prospects just didn't matter very much, and you should just trade what it takes to get the guy they needed. I'm firmly in the other camp on that,

[mweb08]

Nobody, it's just the cost he believes it would have taken.

Well then that's a weird framing of a position imo but whatever.

[Slidemaster]

Well then that's a weird framing of a position imo but whatever.

Do you think it would have taken less? How crazy would have been acceptable to get him?

The fact that nobody got him tells you that nobody's offer was what they wanted, and if the O's had continued to ramp up what they were willing to part with, they would have been bidding against themselves.

[mweb08]

Do you think it would have taken less? How crazy would have been acceptable to get him?

The fact that nobody got him tells you that nobody's offer was what they wanted, and if the O's had continued to ramp up what they were willing to part with, they would have been bidding against themselves.

Probably less, yes.

My point though is that if you're going to argue against the complain about the deadline folk (raises hand) and the so called victory lap crew, then actually argue against them. Following up your victory lap remark by saying the O's shouldn't have done something those people weren't even advocating for is nonsensical. Furthermore, Skubal hasn't even been a primary focus of this crowd from what I've seen. There's been more consternation regarding others that would not have required nearly as much as Skubal would have.

[BaltBird 24]

And I don't think it's far off either. Look what Houston had to trade for Kikuchi. Look how expensive all of the starters around the league were. None of the best ones got traded because the prices were too damn high.

I absolutely believe that that is what it would have taken, and reports were that Detroit was looking for a trade that would alter the trajectory of the franchise.

Considering what Houston paid for Kikuchi, I think Eflin was an absolute steal.