Photo

2024 Game 54: 5/29 Boston 6:35PM


  • Please log in to reply
163 replies to this topic

#141 1970

1970

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 819 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 01:08 PM

Burnes is averaging a strikeout per inning.  Once upon a time, that would have been considered elite.  In today's game, that's the status quo so I'm not surprised there's some knit picking about it.  But it's good enough for me and there's nothing wrong with pitching to contact when you have a very good defense behind you.  Trying to strike out everyone just piles up the pitch count. 

 

Strikeouts in and of themselves do not lead to more pitches being thrown.  Walks, hits, hit batters, and errors are more likely to lead to increased pitch counts than strikeouts.  Having said that, I do agree with the first part of your last sentence - “trying to strike out.”  Erik Bedard used to frustrate the heck out of everyone because he could easily get to 0-2 on a lot of hitters without really trying too hard.  But then you could count on the next pitch, and sometimes the next 2 or even 3 pitches being low and away and out of the zone, which batters quickly figured out they’d be better off taking.  After a game in Seattle Ray Miller went off on him in the post game presser for throwing way too many pitches in an effort to get strikeouts.  He went on quite a tear shortly after that where he mostly stopped doing that.  In that Seattle game, it actually seemed like a lot of their hitters were taking 0-2 pitches because they knew what he was going to do.  He went into that game with almost no-hit stuff, but ended up getting pulled in like the 4th inning because of the pitch count.  I’ll see if I can find the box score to verify my memory.


  • Mackus likes this

#142 1970

1970

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 819 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 01:15 PM

I think this is the game I referenced.  https://www.baseball...200605220.shtml

 

It didn’t happen exactly as I remembered, but he did throw 104 pitches in five innings.  He got to 2 strikes on 11 hitters, but only ended with 2 strikeouts.



#143 ivanbalt

ivanbalt

    All Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,699 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 01:17 PM

I went Tuesday and Wednesday.  Their fans are the absolute worst.  I truly hope they finish last, AGAIN.


So called Red Sox nation was pretty sparse last night, at least where I sat.  Can't be as smug I guess when your team can no longer beat up on a 90+ loss team yearly.



#144 jamesdean

jamesdean

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,432 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 01:36 PM

Strikeouts in and of themselves do not lead to more pitches being thrown.  Walks, hits, hit batters, and errors are more likely to lead to increased pitch counts than strikeouts.  Having said that, I do agree with the first part of your last sentence - “trying to strike out.”  Erik Bedard used to frustrate the heck out of everyone because he could easily get to 0-2 on a lot of hitters without really trying too hard.  But then you could count on the next pitch, and sometimes the next 2 or even 3 pitches being low and away and out of the zone, which batters quickly figured out they’d be better off taking.  After a game in Seattle Ray Miller went off on him in the post game presser for throwing way too many pitches in an effort to get strikeouts.  He went on quite a tear shortly after that where he mostly stopped doing that.  In that Seattle game, it actually seemed like a lot of their hitters were taking 0-2 pitches because they knew what he was going to do.  He went into that game with almost no-hit stuff, but ended up getting pulled in like the 4th inning because of the pitch count.  I’ll see if I can find the box score to verify my memory.

In today's game, the objective for a pitcher is to strike out the hitter.  The hitters accept this challenge and go down with alarming frequency.  Still, you do have to throw more pitches to get a K.  It's rare for a pitcher to strike out someone on 3 pitches.  They have to use all parts of the plate to set a hitter up and in the process, will throw more balls.  Granted, with the idiot umpires behind the plate and their gigantic strike zone, that process is a little easier today, but it still requires some strategy.  If your goal is to limit pitches, then pitching to contact is the way to go.  That does create more of an opportunity for hitters to do damage but if you have a solid defense behind you and you have the ability to induce groundballs and limit homeruns, it can work out well for you. 



#145 1970

1970

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 819 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 02:14 PM

In today's game, the objective for a pitcher is to strike out the hitter.  The hitters accept this challenge and go down with alarming frequency.  Still, you do have to throw more pitches to get a K.  It's rare for a pitcher to strike out someone on 3 pitches.  They have to use all parts of the plate to set a hitter up and in the process, will throw more balls.  Granted, with the idiot umpires behind the plate and their gigantic strike zone, that process is a little easier today, but it still requires some strategy.  If your goal is to limit pitches, then pitching to contact is the way to go.  That does create more of an opportunity for hitters to do damage but if you have a solid defense behind you and you have the ability to induce groundballs and limit homeruns, it can work out well for you. 

 

Studies have been done that show that high-K pitchers don’t throw more pitches than so-called pitch to contact pitchers.  Also, I disagree with your assertion that pitching to contact is the way to go in today’s game, in fact, I believe it’s the opposite.  The time to pitch to contact is when you’re facing hitters who are afraid to strike out, which as you point out, is not many hitters in today’s game.  It worked great in the 1970s, now, not so much, IMHO.  The idea of limiting pitches by pitching to contact is spoiled by hitters who can foul off pitches seemingly at will.  Walks and hits are a much bigger culprit to increased pitch counts than strikeouts.


  • makoman likes this

#146 jamesdean

jamesdean

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,432 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 02:33 PM

Studies have been done that show that high-K pitchers don’t throw more pitches than so-called pitch to contact pitchers.  Also, I disagree with your assertion that pitching to contact is the way to go in today’s game, in fact, I believe it’s the opposite.  The time to pitch to contact is when you’re facing hitters who are afraid to strike out, which as you point out, is not many hitters in today’s game.  It worked great in the 1970s, now, not so much, IMHO.  The idea of limiting pitches by pitching to contact is spoiled by hitters who can foul off pitches seemingly at will.  Walks and hits are a much bigger culprit to increased pitch counts than strikeouts.

Very few hitters today can foul off pitches at will.  That's cutting down on your swing to avoid striking out and hardly anyone does that anymore.  They accept their strikeouts and head back to the dugout.  What you're saying just doesn't apply to today's game.  No one is afraid to strike out.  They where it on their unform like a badge of honor.  And who's pitching to contact today?  Virtually no one. Their goal is to K every single hitter just like a hitter's goal is to hit a ball 500 ft. on every swing.  The true masters of pitching to contact, getting in and out of innings quickly are from another era.  To be able to do that and not get hammered into submission, takes very good control and smarts.  You see some ridiculous pitch counts today because it's not easy harnessing the type of velocity guys are throwing and trying to control breaking pitches.  Mainly because the objective is to get the K. 



#147 makoman

makoman

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,982 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 02:44 PM

Pitching to contact is a lot easier when you have a pitcher and 3 all field no hit guys in the other lineup. The '64 O's won 97 games but had two guys with over 600 PAs and under 100 ISO. Yeah, pitch to contact all day when guys can't hurt you.


  • mweb08 and TwentyThirtyFive like this

#148 Mackus

Mackus

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 63,507 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 02:47 PM

Mainly because the objective is to get the K. 

 

The objective, like always, is to avoid giving up runs.


  • 1970 likes this

#149 jamesdean

jamesdean

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,432 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 02:54 PM

The objective, like always, is to avoid giving up runs.


No easier way to do that than to pile up the strikeouts.

#150 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,517 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 02:56 PM

Contact a little easier when fastballs are 85 MPH and thrown 80% of the time

#151 jamesdean

jamesdean

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,432 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 03:31 PM

Contact a little easier when fastballs are 85 MPH and thrown 80% of the time


When the game was a lot more interesting. Miss those days.

#152 BobPhelan

BobPhelan

    OTV

  • Moderators
  • 15,102 posts
  • LocationBel Air, MD

Posted 30 May 2024 - 03:53 PM

No easier way to do that than to pile up the strikeouts.


Finally you get it.

#153 BobPhelan

BobPhelan

    OTV

  • Moderators
  • 15,102 posts
  • LocationBel Air, MD

Posted 30 May 2024 - 03:53 PM

Waiting for Slide to respond to Mako’s post…

#154 jamesdean

jamesdean

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,432 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 04:09 PM

Finally you get it.


What is it that I get? The original conversation was about pitch count and limiting it by pitching to contact.

#155 Slidemaster

Slidemaster

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,172 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 04:10 PM

Waiting for Slide to respond to Mako’s post…

To me, it's more about the mindset and motivation. Nobody really knows what that is besides Burnes himself, but I will leave it at this:

I don't want a guy on the team long-term who sacrifices the chance to win a World Series to make sure he earns a big payday. If he abandoned the sweeper as part of an organizational philosophy (doubtful), or because he felt it wasn't necessary, I'm fine with that. However, if he abandoned it because he doesn't want to put any undue stress on his arm just before he gets to free agency, I just can't respect that.

From everything I've read, his sweeper graded out better than his slider, and his adding the sweeper last year really helped turn the season around after a rough first half.

I also question some of those numbers, because Major League Baseball from what I recall still classified his sweeper as being a slider, because Burnes himself didn't call it a sweeper even though it's break was much different.

All info from savant. The slider profile this year is 36 inches of drop, 8 inches horizontal movement. This is really similar to what it was in 2020, 2021, and 2022. In 2023 it was 35 inches of drop but 12 inches horizontal. It was a couple MPH slower last year.

This increase in break and mph difference was his sweeper. He just didn't call it that.

Whatever.

Ultimately, I want him to be the best version of himself he can be, and it's hard for me to imagine that it doesn't involve throwing his best breaking pitch.

#156 BobPhelan

BobPhelan

    OTV

  • Moderators
  • 15,102 posts
  • LocationBel Air, MD

Posted 30 May 2024 - 04:14 PM

I'm also wondering like 1970 where this "not throwing his sweeper to save his arm" came from. And he threw a sweeper for half a season after struggling. Maybe he only did it because he couldn't get a feel for his regular slider and now he can.


  • makoman likes this

#157 Slidemaster

Slidemaster

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,172 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 04:16 PM

I'm also wondering like 1970 where this "not throwing his sweeper to save his arm" came from. And he threw a sweeper for half a season after struggling. Maybe he only did it because he couldn't get a feel for his regular slider and now he can.


Maybe it's nothing. It just seems weird. I remember 2035 bringing it up initially, but maybe it has nothing to do with that. It just seems incredibly strange that he would abandon arguably his best pitch this year.

#158 1970

1970

    All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 819 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 04:26 PM

To me, it's more about the mindset and motivation. Nobody really knows what that is besides Burnes himself, but I will leave it at this:

I don't want a guy on the team long-term who sacrifices the chance to win a World Series to make sure he earns a big payday. If he abandoned the sweeper as part of an organizational philosophy (doubtful), or because he felt it wasn't necessary, I'm fine with that. However, if he abandoned it because he doesn't want to put any undue stress on his arm just before he gets to free agency, I just can't respect that.

From everything I've read, his sweeper graded out better than his slider, and his adding the sweeper last year really helped turn the season around after a rough first half.

I also question some of those numbers, because Major League Baseball from what I recall still classified his sweeper as being a slider, because Burnes himself didn't call it a sweeper even though it's break was much different.

This increase in break and mph difference was his sweeper. He just didn't call it that.

Whatever.

Ultimately, I want him to be the best version of himself he can be, and it's hard for me to imagine that it doesn't involve throwing his best breaking pitch.

 

From what I can see, all sweepers are classified as sliders.  MLB doesn’t care what the pitcher chooses to call it.



#159 Slidemaster

Slidemaster

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,172 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 04:33 PM

From what I can see, all sweepers are classified as sliders. MLB doesn’t care what the pitcher chooses to call it.


That I'm not sure about, other than to say there's plenty of articles on mlb.com about the sweeper, so someone employed by major league baseball is classifying it as what it is.

#160 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,517 posts

Posted 30 May 2024 - 04:41 PM

Yes, Im the one that first brought up the sweeper thing. It was in an article or tweet(cant remember) I read a month or so ago. Thats the only reason slide knows about it and I regret that it's been ammo for his ridiculous crusade against Burnes.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


Our Sponsors


 width=