52 replies to this topic

[makoman]

"Just do what Brady and Mahomes do" is always a weird argument to me. The GOAT and well on his way to the GOAT. If that's the standard don't pay anybody and just draft a new QB every few years. Even Peyton always had guys like Harrison, Wayne, Thomas--but he was always one of the top paid, why'd he need those guys? Why'd Big Ben need over 10,000 yards from Antonio Brown? They needed help at WR and have for years. By midseason Robinson and Duvernay were the starters last year, they've had 0 and 7 targets this year. OBJ was a bad choice, but fortunately it has been mitigated a lot because Flowers has paid off.

[Biggsy]

"Just do what Brady and Mahomes do" is always a weird argument to me. The GOAT and well on his way to the GOAT. If that's the standard don't pay anybody and just draft a new QB every few years. Even Peyton always had guys like Harrison, Wayne, Thomas--but he was always one of the top paid, why'd he need those guys? Why'd Big Ben need over 10,000 yards from Antonio Brown? They needed help at WR and have for years. By midseason Robinson and Duvernay were the starters last year, they've had 0 and 7 targets this year. OBJ was a bad choice, but fortunately it has been mitigated a lot because Flowers has paid off.

Agree here. Is the standard for Lamar to be as good as the best QB ever, and the only living person that could possibly supplant him as the best ever? If he's not that good, he's not good enough?

[Mike in STL]

Agree here. Is the standard for Lamar to be as good as the best QB ever, and the only living person that could possibly supplant him as the best ever? If he's not that good, he's not good enough?

 

The standard in Baltimore should be is getting to a Super Bowl. They are a contender every year in September. They aren't a dumpster fire franchise like some teams. But they fail, often, to even sniff it. In the AFC last ten SB reps were:

 

Mahomes

Burrow

Mahomes

Mahomes

Brady

Brady

Brady

Manning

Brady

Manning

 

11 years ago, Flacco. In the last 20 years the AFC has sent only 6 QBs to the Super Bowl, those five, and Roethlisberger. The bar is high. 

 

I was out on Lamar leading this team going forward. For a number of reasons. He's been really good this season. Always is through October and into November. We'll see what December/January brings, if he makes it there. You have to put together the best 4 games of your life at the perfect time. Or be a contender for one of the GOATs, and Lamar very, very likely isn't that. The next one of those guys, isn't likely even in the league yet, and that's a reason to draft someone, and hope they are. 

 

I can't be mad about the deal Lamar got given it's a tick above Hurts and not much more. But business move or not, he wanted out of here, and the Ravens bent over backward to meet demands and got him to stay. I think they may have even been shopping him pre-draft and flinched and pull the trigger on an extension draft night. I'm probably on record that day saying, "just draft Levis and move on," like an hour before the news broke LJ was staying put.

[jamesdean]

"Just do what Brady and Mahomes do" is always a weird argument to me. The GOAT and well on his way to the GOAT. If that's the standard don't pay anybody and just draft a new QB every few years. Even Peyton always had guys like Harrison, Wayne, Thomas--but he was always one of the top paid, why'd he need those guys? Why'd Big Ben need over 10,000 yards from Antonio Brown? They needed help at WR and have for years. By midseason Robinson and Duvernay were the starters last year, they've had 0 and 7 targets this year. OBJ was a bad choice, but fortunately it has been mitigated a lot because Flowers has paid off.

You won't get that argument from me.  I know Lamar can't be Brady or Mahomes and never will be.  But someone, whether it's him or Monken, needs to be able to adjust on a dime and counter the defensive strategy presented to them.  I'm growing weary of this, "we just have to keep getting better" mentality every time they play like crap.  STFU and fix the problems. 

[makoman]

The standard in Baltimore should be is getting to a Super Bowl. They are a contender every year in September. They aren't a dumpster fire franchise like some teams. But they fail, often, to even sniff it. In the AFC last ten SB reps were:

 

Mahomes

Burrow

Mahomes

Mahomes

Brady

Brady

Brady

Manning

Brady

Manning

 

11 years ago, Flacco. In the last 20 years the AFC has sent only 6 QBs to the Super Bowl, those five, and Roethlisberger. The bar is high. 

 

I was out on Lamar leading this team going forward. For a number of reasons. He's been really good this season. Always is through October and into November. We'll see what December/January brings, if he makes it there. You have to put together the best 4 games of your life at the perfect time. Or be a contender for one of the GOATs, and Lamar very, very likely isn't that. The next one of those guys, isn't likely even in the league yet, and that's a reason to draft someone, and hope they are. 

 

I can't be mad about the deal Lamar got given it's a tick above Hurts and not much more. But business move or not, he wanted out of here, and the Ravens bent over backward to meet demands and got him to stay. I think they may have even been shopping him pre-draft and flinched and pull the trigger on an extension draft night. I'm probably on record that day saying, "just draft Levis and move on," like an hour before the news broke LJ was staying put.

All fine and good. The point that Biggsy and I were responding to though was "If you are good enough to get paid you don't need competent receivers, look at Brady and Mahomes."

 

I'm not going to touch Brady, no reason to and he has been fairly unique IMO in having extreme success with nothing at WR. The other guys on your list, Burrow had 3 guys better than what we usually have, other than last year Mahomes had Hill and perhaps the best TE in history, and Manning had a guy who was in a 4 year stretch averaging 100 catches and 1450 yards. Good receivers and good QBs help each other and make each other better. You can't just say "If you want to get paid you should do fine with Demarcus Robinson and James Proche."

[Mike in STL]

All fine and good. The point that Biggsy and I were responding to though was "If you are good enough to get paid you don't need competent receivers, look at Brady and Mahomes."

I'm not going to touch Brady, no reason to and he has been fairly unique IMO in having extreme success with nothing at WR. The other guys on your list, Burrow had 3 guys better than what we usually have, other than last year Mahomes had Hill and perhaps the best TE in history, and Manning had a guy who was in a 4 year stretch averaging 100 catches and 1450 yards. Good receivers and good QBs help each other and make each other better. You can't just say "If you want to get paid you should do fine with Demarcus Robinson and James Proche."

We could go around in circles. Could Mahomes succeed with Demarcus Robinson as his primary? Could Travis Kelce succeed on the Raiders offense? Tyreek Hill is on probably a very short list of guys who left an elite QB and keeps putting up elite numbers. I was higher on Tua than most for a while now, before Hill even went there, but he’s no Mahomes.

I think elite QBs do elevate lesser receivers. I think that’s why the success rate of receivers in free agency in their new homes (bad team with gobs of cap space available) is really really low. You can go back through the years. I hated the argument that the Ravens spent the least on free agent receivers over the years so that equals not taking care of Lamar. But if you look at the classes, the guys never lived up to it. The best get franchised and/or extended. The Ravens have never had anyone worth doing that for. For the price other guys fetched, 5th year option was worth it for Hollywood, but he wanted out instead.

But I guess the point I’m getting at is if you lose a receiver, and that sinks your season, your QB isn’t worth a major or long term contract.

[hallas]

We could go around in circles. Could Mahomes succeed with Demarcus Robinson as his primary? Could Travis Kelce succeed on the Raiders offense? Tyreek Hill is on probably a very short list of guys who left an elite QB and keeps putting up elite numbers. I was higher on Tua than most for a while now, before Hill even went there, but he’s no Mahomes.

I think elite QBs do elevate lesser receivers. I think that’s why the success rate of receivers in free agency in their new homes (bad team with gobs of cap space available) is really really low. You can go back through the years. I hated the argument that the Ravens spent the least on free agent receivers over the years so that equals not taking care of Lamar. But if you look at the classes, the guys never lived up to it. The best get franchised and/or extended. The Ravens have never had anyone worth doing that for. For the price other guys fetched, 5th year option was worth it for Hollywood, but he wanted out instead.

But I guess the point I’m getting at is if you lose a receiver, and that sinks your season, your QB isn’t worth a major or long term contract.

I think you're underselling what great receivers do, especially in a league where it's increasingly difficult to defend receivers. Diggs and AJ Brown moved their QBs into the top tier. The 49ers is hard to know how much is Shanahan, but it certainly helps Purdy that they have Aiyuk and Deebo.

Teams with multiple top receivers are unlikely to tank their seasons if they lose 1. If Philly or Cincy lose a WR the guys behind them can pick up the slack. Even with Miami, Waddle can easily cover Hill. But lets take Buffalo - if Diggs pulls a hamstring tomorrow how dangerous are the Bills? KC is probably still a threat but they have the undisputed best QB in the league.

[bmore_ken]

The standard in Baltimore should be is getting to a Super Bowl. They are a contender every year in September. They aren't a dumpster fire franchise like some teams. But they fail, often, to even sniff it. In the AFC last ten SB reps were:

 

Mahomes

Burrow

Mahomes

Mahomes

Brady

Brady

Brady

Manning

Brady

Manning

QBs don't win SBs by themselves. Dilfer has a SB win. Marino doesn't. CASE CLOSED. 

[Mike in STL]

QBs don't win SBs by themselves. Dilfer has a SB win. Marino doesn't. CASE CLOSED.

Never said they did. Nice try though.

If you think Zach Wilson has the same chance of winning the AFC as Patrick Mahomes I’ll take that bet.

[makoman]

Never said they did. Nice try though.

If you think Zach Wilson has the same chance of winning the AFC as Patrick Mahomes I’ll take that bet.

#2 overall pick Zach Wilson. Kind of illustrating the difficulty of just replacing your top tier QB with a draft pick because of a 4 game sample of playoff games.

[Mike in STL]

#2 overall pick Zach Wilson. Kind of illustrating the difficulty of just replacing your top tier QB with a draft pick because of a 4 game sample of playoff games.

I mean, it’s the Jets. Sauce Gardner is like the first thing they’ve done right in a decade.

I’m not saying it’s easy. It’s definitely not. I’m just saying the guy who could be the next Mahomes, isn’t in the NFL yet, and you only get that guy in the draft. And it’s not even clear who that guy is. Mahomes wasn’t a #1 overall pick and didn’t even start until the last game of his rookie season.

They believe in LJ. And yes, if Burrow, Ben, Flacco can get to a SB, certainly LJ can. If he can make it past November. Our bed is made. Time to sleep in it.

The bar is incredibly high. Sorry, not sorry. 11-6, 12-5 and a one and done playoff experience isn’t close to good enough for this team. They have been too good a franchise for a very long time, now with a good QB they are paying a ton of money to, to not expect greater things.

[You Play to Win the Game]

It’s funny to cite a SSS in playoff games when his performance in the playoffs and inability to stay on the field the last two years are why it’s such a SSS.

I think we’re all in the camps we’re in here and we’re all Ravens fans. Time to see what happens instead of rehash.

[makoman]

It’s funny to cite a SSS in playoff games when his performance in the playoffs and inability to stay on the field the last two years are why it’s such a SSS.

I think we’re all in the camps we’re in here and we’re all Ravens fans. Time to see what happens instead of rehash.

Yeah we discussed this enough in the spring.

 

Peyton Manning was bad in the playoffs till he wasn't. That changed year 6, though it took 3 more to go all the way. Brees didn't win 2 playoff games in one year until the SB, year 9 (and never did again). But it's year 6, we're on the 2nd contract, it's time. How you lose always matters, so I won't really ever say "or bust," but it's time for another step forward.